Is MAGA a fifth column?

Great Debates
1

Recently the DOJ indicted a couple of Russian nationalists and seized 32 web domains tied to a Russian propaganda campaign. I have heard that many people were shocked by this, including online influencers like Tim Pool and Benny Johnson who were allegedly being paid up to $100,000 per week to do shows on Tenet Media sewing division in the US and stoking fears of immigrants, inflation, and other bad things caused by Democrats. Even though many people involved with this scheme (including aforementioned streamers) have declared themselves victims of hostile foreign powers, at least some people must have known the score as the founders of Tenet Googled ‘time in Moscow’ when they were trying to reach their European investors. Really.
Given that Eric Trump allegedly said

We have all the funding we need out of Russia.

in 2014, and Don Jr. admitted

Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets

in 2008, is it possible that MAGA is a fifth column? To me it seems like there is a great deal of evidence, albeit much of it circumstantial, that it is possible, maybe even likely, that MAGA is one of the greatest psyops in history.

Thoughts? Is there any strong evidence I am missing? Is there any exculpatory evidence that it is not?

Apologies if this has been done before.

2

You need to define your terms. Russia has certainly sown chaos in the US this century as a matter of policy, and that means supporting MAGA, the NRA, and social media disinformation. I find it difficult to believe that Trump is not a Russia cutout given standard intelligence techniques directed against American businessmen in Russia, the low likelihood of Trump wanting to resist them (why would he - oligarchs bailed him out in the early 2000s), and Trump’s eerie refusal to criticize Putin.

So… how do you define fifth column?

3

So… how do you define fifth column?

I didn’t realize the term was vague, but looking at definitions I guess it could be taken as such. Still, wikipedia’s definition is sufficient:

fifth column is a group of people who undermine a larger group or nation from within, usually in favor of an enemy group or another nation. The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine.

So I guess what I am asking is MAGA, specifically its leadership, knowingly working for Russia (most likely motivated by personal financial gain), or are they are a bunch of useful idiots*?

*Again from Wikipedia:

A useful idiot or useful fool is a pejorative description of a person, suggesting that the person thinks they are fighting for a cause without fully comprehending the consequences of their actions, and who does not realize they are being cynically manipulated by the cause’s leaders or by other political players.

4

Trump is about Trump. He’s a fifth columnist insofar as he colludes with Russia and sells out to the Saudis or whoever will direct funds to him. But it’s not like he has any special ideological affinity with Turkey, the Saudis, or Russia. Trump is just open to the highest bidder.

Manafort was not a useful idiot. He was an unregistered lobbyist who was jailed for breaking the law. Whether Tucker Carlson receives funds from Russia is as yet unclear. Podcasters Tim Poole and Dave Rubin are basically claiming they were useful idiots. Travis View opines, “I feel like if people are unable to solve the mystery of “why am I getting paid six figures per YouTube video” then they may not be equipped to provide useful analysis on more complex political and cultural issues.” Quite.

There’s no way that Lauren Chen and her husband Liam Donovan were unclear about their funders. Was Chen’s employer The Blaze a useful idiot? I doubt whether they cared too much.

Is it fair to call a group that wants to end the US’s 240 year experiment with democracy as traitorous fifth columnists? Yes, I think so. What about the Cato Foundation, which is very conservative? No, because they don’t carry water for foreign adversaries and they are not insurrectionists.

5

This isn’t Spain, it isn’t 1936, we aren’t in a civil war, nor a war with Russia, and neither MAGA nor MAGA influencers are trying to turn the country over to Russia.

So no, MAGA isn’t a fifth column.

It would be helpful if you could provide any evidence that MAGA is one of the greatest psyops in history before concluding that there is a ‘great deal’ of evidence of MAGA being a psyop, much less one of the ‘greatest ones in history’.

MAGA would be here with or without Russia.

6

Is MAGA a fifth column? I’d argue not, for reasons pointed out upthread, and that little of MAGA is actively working on behalf of Russia or to create a Russian puppet state, which ties into the wikipedia definition quoted by @Happy_Fun_Ball.

Also, because, I believe, along with a substantial portion of the board (majority probably) that Trump didn’t think he’d ever get the nomination, much less the win. It was all cheap (comparatively) advertising and ego puffery. Winning has of course given him huge new chances to grift, but it also opened him up to a ton of investigations that should in a rational world, kill his future as a businessman, and certainly hurt his conventional borrowing ability.

But did Russia intervene to increase the chaos, to stir the hate, to sow confusion? Oh hell yes, then and now. And their return on the investment is probably a greater surprise to them than it is to us. Trump, and MAGA (which points itself in a dozen different domestic directions at once, and sympathizes with Russia to the extent that Russia hates some of the same types they do, as well as a shared love of the great White (emphasis) leader that will solve all the problems) are nothing more than useful idiots.

But I’d still argue that they also intend to profit in a direct way if those they’ve supported end up back in power. Oh, again, not as an ally, precisely, but that by turning inward (Make -America- Great) they’ll gut any American support of Ukraine or anyone else that Russia turns an eye on, as well as a lifting or weakening of sanctions.

Most of MAGA that’s receiving Russian aid are, IMHO, not even useful idiots. They are just supremely selfish, and they do not care (unless caught of course) where the money comes from. They don’t need to be manipulated, because many if not most of them are in it for their own hate, or to make a buck. The money could come from Satan himself, and as long as it isn’t traceable, they would not care because, as they always say about Trump himself, it doesn’t matter if the tool/weapon is tainted, as long as they can use it to destroy their enemies.

7

I asked the OP to define his terms, and the dictionary definition of 5th column didn’t mention Spain, 1936, or civil war. Also to add needed context, we are in a war with Russia by proxy via Ukraine, which I concede isn’t identical to a direct war with Russia.

MAGA supporters are trying to end our 340 year experiment with democracy and seem very fond of Urban in Hungary and Putin in Russia. I say they are fifth columnists, as defined by the OP (who borrowed his definition from the dictionary). I conceive of America as an idea, not a blood and soil construction, so attacking US democracy attacks America in the most direct way possible.

8

I think it’s fair to classify MAGA as a fifth column at this point. My MAGA mother, who spewed Russian propaganda as truth early in the war, is a useful idiot. The likes of Marjorie Taylor Green and others are absolutely fine undermining US interests in the security of Europe so long as it helps them retain power here in the states.

9

I’m basically with @Dissonance in leaving the term “fifth column” back in the WWII era. At first I thought that the Wikipedia article the OP referenced refuted that with a number of more recent uses. But no. As proof of modern uses of the term, those few are barely evidence of anything other than scraping the internet for hits. Yes, the sensible and obvious notion of using propaganda to help a cause is widespread and so is the sensible and obvious ploy of recruiting homegrown propagandists, maybe of whom are no doubt true believers. For example, Fascism had enormous and very pubic support in Britain among the elites prior to WWII. The Nazis were able to fill a 20,000 seat arena for a Bund rally in New York just before the war. The right dominated France and eased the creation of Vichy France. Any of them would fit the definition of a “fifth column.” Yet the Wikipedia article skips all of them and talks about the phrase in terms of fear of Japanese fifth columns in the U.S., a sheerly racist notion that had infinitesimal foundation in reality.

That the MAGA faithful is taking money from Russia to advance their cause is not surprising, utterly horrid, and possibly traitorous. Other than a epithet to throw at them, though, what does it mean to call them a fifth column? Do even 1% of the American public recognize the term? Is it helpful to use the term to understand their behavior more deeply? For that matter, does the term have a meaning in this era? Answers are no, no, and no.

As for MAGA being psyops, I’m bereft of words so I’ll say nothing more.

10

Puzzling. I’ve encountered it as a more general term more often, IMHO. What about Fascist? Is that limited to the 1920s - 1940s as well? I think there’s a stronger case for that, though it doesn’t convince me.

NYT, March 17, 2024: “Many people in Latvia view the Russian-speaking minority as a fifth column for the Kremlin.”

NYT, 2002: “October 20-26: INTERNATIONAL; FIFTH COLUMN FEARS” (“A lieutenant colonel in the Israeli army was arrested on suspicion of spying for the Lebanese guerrilla group Hezbollah in return for drugs.”)

NYT, Sep 5, 1942 headline: “BRAZIL’S FIFTH COLUMN”.

Comment: Of the WWII era, but far away from Spain. This indicates a more general definition.

NYT, June 2, 1952 editorial “THE FIFTH COLUMNS”. (" Editorial on USSR use of Fifth Column technique")

WAPO, March 30, 2022: " Putin’s warning about Russian ‘fifth columns’ has a long, sordid lineage: He is suggesting that anyone with a Western lifestyle could be a traitor"

Recently, as Russia’s invasion of Ukraine entered its fourth week, Russian President Vladimir Putin accused the West of seeking “to provoke civil unrest in Russia and use its fifth column in an attempt to achieve this goal.”

WAPO, 1982 column about WWII and Japanese Internment. Note definition that follows:

A week after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941, Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox returned from an inspection tour of Hawaii and told a shaken nation that “the most effective fifth-column work of the entire war” had aided the surprise attack.
Using a term Americans associated with disloyalty, subversion and collaboration with the enemy, Knox blamed it on those of Japanese ancestry living in Hawaii.

George Will, July 14, 2023:

During Spain’s civil war, a rebel general boasted that he had four columns marching on Madrid and “a fifth column” in Madrid, meaning supporters of the army’s insurgency. Vladimir Putin’s fifth column is not in Kyiv but in the Trump-DeSantis faction of the Republican Party.

These were the first cites that I found at NYT and WAPO. Admittedly, the fact that George Will agrees with me is compelling evidence that I am mistaken. Still, I hope we can sort through the above evidence with a suitably detached frame of mind.

That the MAGA faithful is taking money from Russia to advance their cause is not surprising, utterly horrid, and possibly traitorous. Other than a epithet to throw at them, though, what does it mean to call them a fifth column? Do even 1% of the American public recognize the term? Is it helpful to use the term to understand their behavior more deeply? For that matter, does the term have a meaning in this era? Answers are no, no, and no.

Answers are I dunno, probably not, and resoundingly yes. I agree though that this isn’t the most effective piece of rhetoric. But we’re here to fight ignorance, not develop attack ads for Kamala Harris. The OP asks whether MAGA consists of fifth columnists or useful idiots. The answer is some are one, more are the other, but let’s not count out the awesome power of malign indifference.

11

That is pretty arguable, since the U.S. did not go out seeking to enlist Ukraine to damage Russia. This isn’t the Contras in Nicaragua. Ukraine is a state actor fighting a defensive war for survival. Whether the propping up a country in the midst of an invasion from another country can properly be called a proxy war is contentious.

12

@Measure_for_Measure, Your WaPo column included this sentence. “Using a term Americans associated with disloyalty, subversion and collaboration with the enemy…”

That was true in 1941. It is no longer. Although a few press reports may still use the term, it is archaic in my opinion.

Note how utterly different the term “fascist” is. Everybody throws it around as a pejorative; therefore it has lost crisp definition for a dank haze that connotes something evil. Are the Republicans plotting for a Fascist America? Or a small “f” fascist America? Sure, maybe, in some senses, not really, not happening here. I wouldn’t call the lunatic playbook fascist, although it is in many ways anti-democratic. Despite my loud descriptivism, I personally try not to use popular terms that I can’t justify with a definition and evidence.

13

I don’t think it’s archaic. I went to Google Trends which plots web searches. Fascist gets 20 points out of 100. Fifth column gets 2 points out of 100. So fifth column is about 10% as popular as fascist.

I’ll try another experiment: compare to skate key. Fifth column gets 23 points. Skate key gets 8 points. So fifth column is about three times more popular than skate key.

Is there a better comparison?

Tamerlane: Yes, the Ukrainian War shouldn’t be called a proxy war. But I also think it’s improper to say that the US and Russia are at peace with one another or that we aren’t in war with Russia, without mentioning that we are donating arms to a country that Russian has invaded and is at war with.

14

Might I humbly suggest you actually look up the definition of fifth column yourself rather than relying upon a cherry-picked single definition from a single dictionary provided by the OP. Because that isn’t the actual definition of the term fifth column. One may as well rely upon Humpty Dumpty to define what he means by the phrase “there’s glory for you” and then run with his incorrect definition.

And no, we are not at war with Russia. We are providing arms to a country that has been invaded by Russia. Calling it a proxy war with Russia is doing no more than feeding into Russian propaganda. Would you say the US was in a proxy war with Hitler from Sep 1, 1939, until Dec 10, 1941, because we were providing arms to France and the Commonwealth?

Again, MAGA isn’t planning on turning the US over to the Kremlin. You seem to be ignoring the most salient sentence in the OP, to whit:

The OP is suggesting that MAGA is a humongous conspiracy by Russia to take over the US. That is absurd on its face.

Regarding the examples you provided:

Latvia’s Russian population are largely Russian colonists from the time it was forcibly incorporated into the Soviet Union. Russia’s rationale for every country it has invaded since the end of the Cold War has been to protect Russian minorities. Many Russo-Latvians wouldn’t mind being reincorporated into Russia.

This is pretty self-explanatory. A Lt. Col. in the IDF is being accused of spying for Hezbollah, an organization Israel is at war with.

You give no context for this headline. I’ll note, however, that it not being Spain nor 1936 is irrelevant. The list of reasons MAGA isn’t a fifth column I gave aren’t a checklist where everyone needs to be ticked off for the term fifth column to apply. Spain and 1936 are where the term originated from.

Again, no context given. But at a guess, it’s referring to either the Red Scare (Communists are infiltrating our/others governments!) or providing military aid to various revolutionary communist forces around the world to undermine countries from within in the context of the Cold War.

Gee, Putin is saying anyone with a decadent Western lifestyle is a traitor, and anyone opposed to the Special Military Operation is a Western agent seeking to provoke unrest in Russia. I can’t imagine how this would be blatant Kremlin propaganda explaining away why anyone protesting the ‘Special Military Operation’ or god forbid calling it a war needs to be thrown in jail.

I’ll assume the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII on the grounds that they were a fifth column (which they weren’t) is self-explanatory, and George Will’s hyperbolic description of TFG-Desantis as a Russian fifth column doesn’t really need comment. A fifth column is an organization hidden within a government or its armed forces that is working directly for its enemies to undermine it from within and hand it over to those it is fighting. MAGA shares interests with Russia. It is not a Russian conspiracy to hand the US over to Russia, which is what the OP suggests in some rather wild conspiratorial thinking, accusing it of being nothing more than a colossal psyop set up by the Kremlin in 2008. For all of the things I despise MAGA for, being a massive Russian plot isn’t on my Bingo card.

15

Reasonable request, followed by overblown rhetoric. I cite Webster’s New World College Dictionary, 4th ed. They list definitions in historical order:

  1. those people in Madrid who aided for forces of Francisco Franco in his uprising against the Spanish republic (1936-39)… 2) any group of people who aid the enemy from within their own country. - fifth columnists.

Not an archaic term according to my cite. Wholly consistent with Happy Fun Ball’s definition. You would have a point if Happy Fun Ball was arguing that MAGA were closet Franco fans. But of course he didn’t argue anything like that.

I would be comfortable saying that the 1941 Lend Lease bill opposed Hitler by proxy. I wouldn’t call it a proxy war against Hitler, any more than I would call the Ukrainian War a proxy war against Putin.

My examples were wholly consistent with Happy Fun Ball’s definition, and definition 2 of Webster’s New World College Dictionary.

That’s not the definition given by Happy Fun Ball, nor is it the one supplied by Webster’s New World College Dictionary. But if that’s what you mean by “Fifth column”, I would not call MAGA a fifth column because Trump never hid his loyalties. There’s no problem with using an unusual definition, provided you state it so that the reader can understand it.

Well, Russia intelligence services did what hostile dictatorial intelligence services do, which is foment chaos within democracies. The Russian plot was massive, meaning it involved a substantial expenditure for a Mexico-sized economy. It’s the “nothing more” part that moves us into fantasyland. Happy Fun Ball: does Dissonance present an accurate characterization of your views?

16

I’m not so sure about that.

17

“Take over”? No, and the OP doesn’t say that.

MAGA is part of a massive effort by Russia to undermine and where possible destroy Western democracy. Which is happening now and has been for years, with plenty of evidence to support it. They don’t need to “take over” America; they just need it weak and divided. And boy, are they succeeding in achieving this.

Not read the papers lately? Because the right are absolutely bent on turning America into a fascist state. That’s actual fascism, not the “hyperbolic pejorative” kind.

18

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I’m catching up here, but nowhere did I say that Russia was trying to take over the US nor did I say that MAGA was working toward that end. If I implied that with the word psyop, I did not mean to.

So since there seems to be a focus on the letter of the definition and not (as I was trying to use) the parlance, let’s do it again:

This from Mirriam-Webster (emphasis added by me):

Psyops:
1 military operations usually aimed at influencing the enemy’s state of mind through noncombative means (such as distribution of leaflets)
2 government use of a person or phenomenon to influence a population’s opinions and attitudes.

My thesis is that MAGA leadership is involved in a cynical scheme to knowingly harm US society and government. I do not think Russia expects to “take over the US,” nor do I think that this is the goal of MAGA. I said nothing about war and don’t really think Ukraine is relevant. To lean on the definitions I presented, I think that MAGA (a group of people) are undermining the US (a larger group or nation) from within in favor of an enemy group or nation (Russia) in an overt fashion. They are most likely doing this for money. Because they will get rich doing so; not because of any ideology or support for Russia. The term fifth column here is contrasted with useful idiot, which while basically serving the same purpose from Russia’s perspective does so unknowingly.

As far as psyops goes, I think that MAGA is being utilized by Russia to influence our nation’s opinions and attitudes (the definition of a psyops). Of course every nation and group tries to do this, but if MAGA is a fifth column motivated purely by self-interest, then Russian can wield them as a scalpel to great effect (thus making it potentially the greatest, or maybe most effective, psyops in history).

I just want to clarify what I was trying to say from what you think I said in my OP. I will continue to read the responses now.

19

No. And I tried to clarify my views in my latest post.

20

This is exactly what I think and what my OP is trying to address. It is a given that Russia is continuously trying to weaken and even destroy Western democracy which they rightly view as a threat to their system of government. My question is whether MAGA (or its leadership) is helping with this goal knowingly (as opposed to just being a useful idiot for the Russians).

I want to be clear that if MAGA is knowingly helping Russia, I doubt they are doing it because of ideology or loyalty to Russia. I believe they are doing it to get rich. That is why Tucker Carlson has a show on RT. That is why Tim Pool accepted $100,000 per week to make a show undermining faith in our government in society. And that is why I believe Trump originally ran for President and is a big reason why he is running again (that and dodging legal consequences).