Is MAGA a fifth column?

Great Debates
21

I’ll take you at your word that it wasn’t what you intended to convey. The fact remains it is what you actually said, not once but twice. Again, I’ll take you at your word that this wasn’t what you intended to convey, but it is what the phrasing you used said. A fifth column is an organization working for the enemy to destroy a government/military from within. At the behest of the enemy, to deliver it to said enemy. A psyop is nothing more than the shortened ‘milform’ of psychological operation. You said:

MAGA is neither a fifth column, nor is it a psyop of Russia. It is a homegrown, entirely Native American (in the sense of the Know Nothing Party) phenomenon. It was not created at the direction of the Kremlin, nor is it working with the Kremlin entirely for the Kremlin’s interests. That it shares interests with Russia, and that Western MAGA and MAGA-esque ‘influencers’ have long had a hard on for Russia, and that it has come to light that some of these influencers were being paid by RT doesn’t make it a creation of Russia.

That’s the thing though. Fifth columns don’t act in their own self-interest. They don’t have self-interests. They act in the interest of something hostile to the government they are working against.

Fifth column Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

: a group of secret sympathizers or supporters of an enemy that engage in espionage or sabotage within defense lines or national borders

FIFTH-COLUMNIST | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary

a member of a group of people who support the enemies of the country they live in and secretly help them:

Fifth column | Definition & Facts | Britannica

fifth column, clandestine group or faction of subversive agents who attempt to undermine a nation’s solidarity by any means at their disposal. The term is conventionally credited to Emilio Mola Vidal, a Nationalist general during the Spanish Civil War (1936–39). As four of his army columns moved on Madrid, the general referred to his militant supporters within the capital as his “fifth column,” intent on undermining the loyalist government from within.

A cardinal technique of the fifth column is the infiltration of sympathizers into the entire fabric of the nation under attack and, particularly, into positions of policy decision and national defense. From such key posts, fifth-column activists exploit the fears of a people by spreading rumours and misinformation, as well as by employing the more standard techniques of espionage and sabotage.

22

So, what you are saying is that you find the definitions that I set at the beginning at this debate and reiterated later are not acceptable to you. You want to argue my debate using your definitions so that you can completely sidestep my question and declare yourself the winner? Did I get that right?

OK. You win. You are 100% right and I have been humbled by your rhetorical skills. MAGA is not a fifth column. They are not Russian sympathizers engaging in espionage and sabotage within the defense lines of our national borders. I admit that I was confused by my sloppy definitions.

Thanks. I really appreciate your insights.

Can I ask a different question? Is it possible that MAGA, or maybe just it’s leaders, is not really acting based on an ideology but is instead cynically trying to get rich espousing ideas that just so happen to align with the national interests of Russia? And if that is the case, is this the reason that so many of them have been accepting money from the Russian government? I mean we have Tucker Carlson and his very own show on RT. Tim Pool and others getting $100,000 per show with less than 10,000 views per episode. We have Don Jr. admitting that they get all the funding they ever needed from Russia. Never mind that the President of the United States admitted on live TV that he trusts Vladimir Putin more than he trusts his own subordinates in the Military and Intelligence Services because this is indicative of nothing. Is it possible that MAGA is just a get rich quick scheme taking advantage of the gullibility of the average US voter? Is there any evidence for or against?

If it is possible and is actually happening what would you call MAGA? I agree that it is not a fifth column by your definition, but what is it? Note, I still wonder if they are useful idiots and would accept that term, but if they are knowingly accepting money to undermine our society what are they? What term would you use to describe the Russians funding media organizations and pundits like Tim Pool to sew discord in our society? Free speech maybe? Wait, are they real Americans? Patriots? Defenders of the Constitution? What term would you use?

I only ask because I am in awe of your debating skills and how quickly you put me in my place by using more defintions than me.

23

This isn’t that deep. Words have meanings. They aren’t “my definitions”, and I am not sidestepping your question. You chose your words poorly in framing your question. To reiterate, the question you asked in the OP was:

The answer to that is no, MAGA is not a fifth column, and no, MAGA is not likely one of the greatest psyops in history. You’ve claimed in the second sentence but presented no evidence that MAGA is a psyop. MAGA is not a creation of Russia. It is not a psyop of Russia. It is a home grown American political movement. It has ideologies and interests that intersect with Russian ones. It’s not even surprising MAGA influencers were getting funding from RT. They have been spouting Russian talking points about the war since it started and have been distortedly seeing Russia as a bastion of ‘freedom’ from ‘wokeness’ and ‘the LGBT agenda’ since far before then. But it is not a creation of, a fifth column of, or a psyop of Russia. It is entirely homegrown in America and the West.

One of the influencers that RT was paying that seems to have largely gone unremarked on is Laura Southern. She’s pretty much irrelevant these days, but she had her 15 minutes of fame as a literal nazi, spouting white nationalism, and promoting The Great Replacement as a conspiracy by the Jews to eliminate the White Race way back before Elmo made it ‘cool’ by promoting it on Twitter. She’s also moved back to Canada. Russia had no problem funneling money her way not because she’s a fifth columnist, or part of a Russian psyop, but because she was willing to shill Russian talking points about the War in Ukraine. Rather ironically since she is a literal nazi and Russia’s justification for the war is to ‘denazify’ Ukraine.

24

FWIW and it is just MHO, I think that’s it, as you had quickly clarified early on:

Maybe a few “useful idiots” also, just manipulated by Russian operations, and a few with extant sincere beliefs given amplification by Russian operations because those beliefs align with Russian interests.

They are not mutually exclusive.

25

The problem is that definition has absolutely nothing to do with what either a fifth column or a psyop actually is, and there has been exactly zero evidence provided to prove MAGA is either of those things. And there’s no possible outcome where arbitrarily redefining words that have existing meanings to mean whatever we want them to mean could possibly go wrong, am I right?

Here, let me give you an example courtesy of everyone’s favorite orange convicted felon: Kamala Harris is a Communist and a Marxist.

Counterpoint: she’s neither of those things. Calling her a Communist and a Marxist is factually incorrect. How do you back up this absurd claim?

TFG: Allow me to clarify my definition of Communist and Marxist. She’s a Democrat, and thinks the government has a positive role to play in the country’s social safety net.

Counterpoint: But that’s not what either Communism or Marxism actually mean.

TFG: So, what you’re saying is that you find the definitions that I set at the beginning and reiterated later aren’t acceptable. You want to argue my debate using your definitions so that you can sidestep completely my question and declare yourself the winner. Kamala Harris is a Communist and a Marxist!

I mean, that’s proven that Kamala Harris is a Communist and a Marxist, right?

26

… is not what the OP was about.

The clarification about the meaning intended was made. The OP was asking if “MAGA, specifically its leadership, knowingly working for Russia (most likely motivated by personal financial gain)”

Do you have any thoughts about that?

27

Have you actually read this thread? Because I’ve made my thoughts on the matter abundantly clear, and no, that is not what this thread has been about. And nowhere has the OP retracted his erroneous definition of MAGA as either a fifth column or a psyop, or clarified that he was using the wrong words in his description of MAGA as a fifth column and a psyop. Instead, he has doubled down on using these words incorrectly, and fallaciously attempted to claim that the actual definitions of these words are “my definitions” rather than the words actual definitions and is upset that I refuse to use his (erroneous) definitions.

So, you’re fine that Kamala Harris is a Marxist Communist then, right? Because under TFG’s warped worldview, she is. By his definitions. Which are wrong.

28

Why yes I did read the thread.

And apparently your answer to my question is no? You have no thoughts on the question of whether MAGA, specifically its leadership, or minimally some of it, is knowingly working for Russia?

As to your perseveration on the definition of “fifth column” rather than that?

First indeed the OP immediately responded to a question about the use of the phrase by recognizing that they “didn’t realize the term was vague, but looking at definitions I guess it could be taken as such” and clarified the question, trying to move the discussion along.

Second, the OP offered a source for what the phrase is commonly understood to mean. A discussion of its use in this manner can be found here:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0263395718776215

Clearly the author is not a fan of the increasingly common usage of the phrase, and the “traitor within” imagery, but they do extensively describe that such is its common current usage, across a variety of spectrums.

If you want to argue a prescriptivist stance that the phrase only means Spain, 1936, civil war, or countries being in armed conflict with each other, well that is simply not how the phrase is used nowadays. That is an archaic definition.

Now are there elements of MAGA leadership who are knowingly working for Russian interests over the best interests of the United States, while posing to be interested in American greatness? I don’t have hard evidence of that but actions seem to me to be consistent with such. I don’t have the sources at hand but I do recall some article of academics hired specifically to promote Russian interest perspectives to the thought leadership of the Right.

Maybe others have that information more at hand?

29

In recent news there is this:

The open question for discussion is whether or not these conservative influencers peddling Russian narratives under lucrative contracts were indeed just “duped” as they claim.

30

Thank you for this well-written attempt to re-rail what could be a very interesting and productive thread if we can collectively move beyond bickering over definitions.

Speaking just for me, I’m quite convinced at least some of the RW influencers are well aware of who they’re working for and happy to do it. Re-making America into a Putin-esque authoritarian kleptocracy with them as insiders or at least as remoras to the real insiders sounds very attractive to them; it’s a version of American Greatness they can sincerely get behind.

Many others are studiously avoiding looking past the person actually handing them the check to prevent finding out where the underlying money is coming from.

I’m not able to cite cites, and until DOJ finishes their work we’ll all be relying on intrepid reporters or disgruntled leakers. If trump is elected and the investigation is loudly halted in its tracks that will speak volumes even if it never publishes a page of results.

31

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I don’t think something can be considered a 5th column unless they are intentionally doing so with the goal of being one.

I see Russia merely seeing MAGA as useful tools to be exploited, but I don’t think MAGA-ers themselves are purposefully trying to destroy America.

33

I’m pretty sure those two count as “useful idiots”. Both in the sense of the rhetorical phrase and in the literal sense of the two words. With emphasis on the latter of the two words.

There is also this (rather misleadingly titled) recent thread on-point:

34

I remembered what I was thinking of!

Maria Butina and her NRA connections getting her high level access.

35

There’s a distinction between MAGA influencers and leadership and the MAGA rank and file. The rank and file are useful idiots, in @Happy_Fun_Ball’s parlance.

What do you call someone who is on the payroll of foreign powers and is indifferent to US national security? “Spy” might be one term. I don’t think ideological motivations matter very much when accusing someone of being a traitor or part of a fifth column: I accept wiki’s definition.

A fifth column is a group of people who undermine a larger group or nation from within, usually in favor of an enemy group or another nation. The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine. …

To be fair, US right wing influencers on RT’s payroll disavow being traitorous scumbags and are basically claiming the useful idiot category.

36

Your reading is extremely selective if you think I haven’t already answered this, and presume that my answer is no. So selective that there would be no difference between your having read it and not having read it.

…And that you imagine that I think the phrase means Spain and 1936 is further proof that you very clearly have not read anything I’ve written. There’s no point in continuing this further with you if you aren’t going to actually read.

37

Oh we agree there! :sweat_smile:

38

More on what I was thinking about with Maria Butina.

39

Bolded part you left out of my own quote put back in. The answer to your question of

Has already been asked and answered to wit:

As for your absurd misrepresentation that I think it not being Spain or 1936 are somehow requirements for something to be a fifth column:

So really, don’t claim to have read what I wrote and then completely ignore what I wrote.

40

There are a number of articles related to the OP published on Sep 5. The Hill published a so-so followup article today. To recap, 2 RT employees apparently funneled $10 million to a shell company called Tenet Media. The Nashville company was run by Lauren Chen of Glenn Beck’s BlazeTV, until she was fired following disclosures. She has also worked with the right wing college advocacy group Turning Point USA. I opine that she knew what she was doing, BlazeTV should have known what she was doing; I’m not sure about Turning Point because I don’t know the extent of her involvement.

Anyway, a number of influencers were cut checks: among them were Tim Pool, Dave Rubin and Benny Johnson. According to The Hill, “One of the influencers was paid $400,000 a month while another was given $100,000 per video.” A.J. Bauer of the University of Alabama who studies right-wing media states, “Even if they were unaware that Russia was the one providing the funds, if somebody’s giving you $100,000 per podcast episode, that should raise some questions, right? Who’s bankrolling this?”

The influencers claim they were duped. All 3 of the preceding have merrily continued to produce their vids, notwithstanding the allegations. The subset of their supporters who consider themselves patriots need to question their information sources. As I quoted Travis View in post 4: “I feel like if people are unable to solve the mystery of “why am I getting paid six figures per YouTube video” then they may not be equipped to provide useful analysis on more complex political and cultural issues.” But then again, they may be fifth columnists as defined by wikipedia, or traitors. They are either idiots, Russian cutouts, or some combination of the two. Speaking as a matter of logic.