Is my well pump dying?

Factual Questions
1

I have a residential, single-phase in-well pump 220’ deep, and it’s 25 years old (never replaced). I also have a Well-X-Trol tank and a Square-D pressure switch.

Now my water pressure sometimes drops to zero for a few seconds at the low point in the cycle. I’ve watched pressures and checked things, and I believe the Well-X-Trol has 20 psig in it when the water’s drained and the pressure switch is cutting in at 24 psig and cutting out at 44 psig.

When the switch cuts in, sometimes I immediately hear a fluttering noise from what I believe is a checkvalve in the fitting tree at the base of the tank, and immediately see the pressure climb. But sometimes I hear a subsecond surging sound and no fluttering and no climb. About 10 seconds later I hear that again. Maybe I hear this a few times. If something’s using water, the pressure drops to the low peg and flow stops. Then on one of these 10 second cycles, I hear fluttering and see the pressure climb. I suspect I’m hearing the pump try to start, and then cut out again, on these nonsuccessful 10 second cycles.

What’s going on? Is my pump dying? Is something else going wrong?

2

Some more tidbits:

I had a slow leak in the air pressure fill stem on the Well-X-Trol, so it would lose air pressure. I found the stem bubbled when I wet it, and put a gasketed metal valve stem cover on it, and that fixed that. I haven’t tried to replace the core inside.

I also had the pressure switch go bad a few years ago. Our water pressure was absolutely fantastic. Then I happened to be near the gage when the pump switched on, and I watched the gage climb past 100 psig and stop on the upper peg which looks like 110 or so. The pump ran for perhaps 50% longer than it took to get to the peg before I was frightened enough to kill the breaker. Note that our well is deep enough that the pump itself must have been reaching well over 200 psig (down there), maybe over 250 or even 300 for all I can tell. I found a mouse nest inside the unit and a sunflower seed lodged under part of the mechanism.

Having the Well-X-Trol and pressure switch pressures mismatched is a separate problem, I think, which of course I had during the air leak problem. Depending on the mismatch, this can also cause the pressure to drop to nothing at the bottom of the cycle, but I don’t think it can cause the 10 second brief surge sound thing.

3

I also live on a well.

X-trol tank and square D switch.

Could your well be going dry?

In my case, a constant, hours long draw will make the well continue to run. But the pressure will not come up. It will bump up but then drops right back down.

A running toilet has done that to me, and I live on a lot that has springs popping up everywhere. Not so sure what’s going on underground.

Next time it happens, throw the breaker and wait 30 minutes.

If it recovers, I would guess that there was no water to draw. The aquifer had to refill a bit.

Is there new development around that may also be drawing from that aquifer?

4

[QUOTE=Napier]
I have a residential, single-phase in-well pump 220’ deep, and it’s 25 years old (never replaced). I also have a Well-X-Trol tank and a Square-D pressure switch.

Now my water pressure sometimes drops to zero for a few seconds at the low point in the cycle. I’ve watched pressures and checked things, and I believe the Well-X-Trol has 20 psig in it when the water’s drained and the pressure switch is cutting in at 24 psig and cutting out at 44 psig.

When the switch cuts in, sometimes I immediately hear a fluttering noise from what I believe is a checkvalve in the fitting tree at the base of the tank, and immediately see the pressure climb. But sometimes I hear a subsecond surging sound and no fluttering and no climb. About 10 seconds later I hear that again. Maybe I hear this a few times. If something’s using water, the pressure drops to the low peg and flow stops. Then on one of these 10 second cycles, I hear fluttering and see the pressure climb. I suspect I’m hearing the pump try to start, and then cut out again, on these nonsuccessful 10 second cycles.

What’s going on? Is my pump dying? Is something else going wrong?
[/QUOTE]

Do you have a control box for the pump? It would be a 10x6x4 box usually grey or
blue. If so take a look at the capacitor.(black cylinder)where the wires go into it it has a hole with aluminum foil visible if that is pushing out or there is a strong smell from it thats your problem.

5

Not sure, but don’t think either of these is it.

We used more water yesterday than usual when we noticed this. But in the past, when we use too much water, it turns muddy, and that didn’t happen. Moreover, if the well level were too low, wouldn’t the pump turn on and start to refil the tank, but draw the water level down till it didn’t work? So, wouldn’t I see the pump start and the pressure start to go up but it wouldn’t make it to the cutoff, it’d just stall partway up?

Because what I see is this pulse-every-20-second thing happen 5 or 10 times without any increase in pressure, then it will start and pump all the way up to the cutoff. And it just did it a minute ago even though we’ve used no water for maybe 3 hours, because I flushed once. We have used somewhat less than average today.

There’s no control box for the pump, other than the little pressure switch. The pressure switch has two contact pairs, no capacitor, and it’s about 2 by 2 by 3 inches. A single run of what looks like Romex disappears down the well, on a 240V “two phase” (meaning single phase but two hot leads) circuit. If there’s a motor-start capacitor on this, it must be down below. But I’m gonna guess it’s a split phase motor, because it doesn’t have to start under much torque. On a non-positive-displacement pump there’s almost no torque at standstill and low torque until it is spinning at, say, 1/3 or 1/2 half speed. When this does start filling the tank, it sounds like it always did and the needle climbs as fast as I’m used to seeing.

6

Is your tank also 25 years old? Does it have a bladder? Our old tank didn’t have a bladder and it would get water-logged and cause the pump to cycle on and off sporadically.

7

The tank is 25 years old and has a bladder, but I checked its pressure with the pump breaker off and the system open and drained, and it’s about 2 psi lower than the pump cuton pressure, per the mfr’s recommendation. I can watch it cycle and see it filling and emptying and it delivers many gallons during a cycle.

I wondered if the pump would act like this due to low line voltage. I only have a monitor on one side of the line but it said 118 V a couple hours ago and just now I watched it moving between 120 and 122 V. I think it’s very likely the pump is getting twice this. But I can imagine low voltage causing this, if there’s some mechanism in the pump that causes it to time out and retry when the voltage is too low. Anybody know if there is such a mechanism?

BTW Thanks a great deal, everybody, for the ideas!

8

Your pump will have a capacitor in your case it is built into the pump.

Next step is do some electrical tests on the pump and see what you get. Get an amprobe reading off each leg of the switch. Watch for spikes when the pump is turning on. Get an ohm reading(power needs to be off) Test each leg against ground to check for insulation leaks. Test each leg against each other. Resistance varies with horsepower.

9

I recently replaced the well pressure switch at my home, and noted a buildup of corrosion inside the 1/4 NPT nipple leading from the well tee to the switch, and elected to replace that, also.

10

OK, here are some electrical results:

When I’m running water with the CB on, the pressure is high, the pump is off. The voltage going to the pump measured at the pressure switch is 0 VAC. The supply side of the switch is 244 to 247. I get down to about 21 psig, the switch clicks, the pump voltage goes to about 237 to 239 for a second or a second and a half, I here that pulsing sound, and then the sound disappears and the voltage jumps to 245 or so. The pressure keeps falling. In about 15 seconds the pump voltage again drops from 245 to about 238 for a second, another pulse sound, then 245 and silence again. We go through 3 such cycles. The next cycle, the pump voltage goes to 244 and the pump starts running and the pressure starts climbing. The voltage stays at 244 until the pressure cutoff, then zero, as it should be.

So, again, it sounds like the pump tries a few times without adding anything measureable to the tank, then it has a good run and fills the system. Our water use in the last 12 hours has been tiny.

With the CB off, I measure 5.5 ohms across the pump leads. Either pump lead to ground, or either supply lead to ground or the other lead, is over 20 megohms. I measure no AC voltages across anything I try.

11

Forgot to say, I don’t have an amprobe, I have to borrow one. And, when the pump has a good run, the voltage does drop to the high 230s for the first fraction of a second. I think my DMM has a half second cycle time, so that’s the granularity of my time-sensitive remarks.

12

The amp readings are important for a diagnosis. I’ll wait around for those before coming to a final conclusion.

Have you caught your pump turning on without running any water? You may have a very slowly leaking check valve in the well that forces the pump to rebuild pressure in the drop pipe each time it turns on. Because there has been no mention of air in the line the check valve at the pump is still doing something.

My guess so far is your pump is failing. Right now your 15 years ahead of the average so it’s done a good job so far. If it needs to replaced are you planning on doing it yourself or bringing in a contractor to do it for you?

13

Here are the amp readings, from one test.

During the on pulses, which look more like 2 or 3 seconds, the current is at 25 amps. Very high, I think. The breaker is a 20 amp dual pole one, though of course 2 or 3 seconds isn’t long enough to trip it. The 25 was well on scale and seems pretty solid.

There were 4 of these on pulses.

Then on the 5th attempt the pump ran and drew maybe 3 or 5 amps or so. It was so low on the scale, which was nonlinear and uncalibrated below 10 amps anyway, that it’s hard to say.

We have seen very occasional water pressure disappearance in the past, now that we think of it, but now it seems to happen once or twice per 10 minute shower.

So, does that sound like dying?

And, would we guess a day, a week, a month, or who knows? There’s money riding on this, of course.

Thanks for any advice! boytyperanma, I’ve got my fingers crossed…

14

[QUOTE=Napier]
Here are the amp readings, from one test.

During the on pulses, which look more like 2 or 3 seconds, the current is at 25 amps. Very high, I think. The breaker is a 20 amp dual pole one, though of course 2 or 3 seconds isn’t long enough to trip it. The 25 was well on scale and seems pretty solid.

There were 4 of these on pulses.

Then on the 5th attempt the pump ran and drew maybe 3 or 5 amps or so. It was so low on the scale, which was nonlinear and uncalibrated below 10 amps anyway, that it’s hard to say.

We have seen very occasional water pressure disappearance in the past, now that we think of it, but now it seems to happen once or twice per 10 minute shower.

So, does that sound like dying?

And, would we guess a day, a week, a month, or who knows? There’s money riding on this, of course.

Thanks for any advice! boytyperanma, I’ve got my fingers crossed…
[/QUOTE]

Yep definitely on it’s last legs. How long it can survive like that is anyones guess. Pumps can fail like that while doing the tests you’ve performed or they could take a month or two to go totally dead and anywhere in between.

Based on what you’ve given me for info(and not checking my books) I’d guess it is a 1/2HP 10 gallon a minute pump. The 1/2HP is based on the 5.5 ohm reading. The fact that it is a two wire makes and your pressure is set so low makes me think it is a 10 gallon a minute pump. They were saving some money for the initial cost by using a 2 wire set up. It saves about 50 bucks on the cost of the pump by not having a control box. The pump instead has the capacitor built into the It. It also saves the cost of the wire. A 10gal/min pump is cheaper then a 7 or 5gal/min pump so I see a lot of people use them even though a 5 or 7 would make better pressure for that depth of well. Considering it’s lasted 25 years the make is probably Burks or Gould’s.(Burks went out of business)

I would never install a 2 wire pump. Most pumps will blow the capacitor once in their lifetime. If it’s built into the pump you have to pull the pump to change it at which point your better off replacing the whole thing. If you have a conduit for the wire or you could reasonable dig a 2 foot trench from the well to the house I would change over to a 3 wire.

If you have any further questions feel free to ask.

15

Thanks!

So, there are two plastic tubes entering my basement wall. Both are the same size, maybe 1" ID, the same semirigid black plastic, I guess polyethylene or polypropylene. One carries water to the plumbing at the bottom of the Well-X-Trol through plastic hose bibs. The other has Romex with white, black, and green wires. White and black are both 120 VAC from ground and apparently go to the double circuit breaker to deliver 240 VAC to the pump. Green is grounded to the pressure switch baseplate and therefore to the copper plumbing that goes from the Well-X-Trol through the rest of the house.

This amounts to a 2 wire circuit, with no way to add a starter capacitor inside the house. As I think about ways a motor could work I could see a starter capacitor external to the pump if there were 3 active wires (besides the ground, I mean), with the centrifugal switch still inside the motor. Also, I’m guessing in such a setup there isn’t a motor run capacitor (a much smaller capacitor that is always in the circuit to one of the two windings, which improves motor efficiency and lowers motor temperature by storing the out-of-phase energy).

There is a 6" or so well casing with a cast aluminum top advertising the well driller in my back yard. A 1/2" or so metal conduit outside but adjacent to the casing carries Romex to the top of this casing, where it goes over and down. There’s also Nylon rope coming out and tied around the casing. So, somewhere underground, there is some kind of transition between the metal conduit and the semirigid plastic pipe. What are the chances I can pull new wire through this? I mean, if they slipped the metal conduit into the end of the plastic pipe, it’d be straight and I could probably pull the short end of a new cable through. It’s about 25’ from well to house, and from the terrain I figure it’s a straight run in plan view. If there’s some kind of elbow in there, of course I can’t. Likewise if the conduit and plastic pipe are just at the ends of the run (but the Romex has a thin white outer jacket, not a heavy grey extruded one that encases the conductors separately like UFB). You think I can pull a new wire? The installation is original for the house, all 25 years old.

Thanks!!

16

More info. A plumber with a medium sized Yellow Pages ad saying “Specializing in Well Pump Replacement” came out and watched it cycle once with an amprobe on it, and diagnosed “Well pump has bad spot on motor. Pump would run and draw 22 amps then shut off on overload, then turn back on.” They suggest it will fail soon but don’t know how soon. This all sounds reasonable, except the “bad spot on motor” part (I don’t think anything’s down there moving it to a good spot so it can run eventually). But it’s a manner of speaking, I guess.

They recommend removing and replacing it with “Premium Goulds 1/2 hp 5 gpm pump, 200’ of #12 Premium wire, 5 years warranty, chlorination of well and new stainless steel male adapters on well.” for $2384.97. They offered to do it on the spot but I deferred because I don’t actually have that available right now. They left but called back and offered 10% off. Does this price sound fair?

17

MORE questions (sorry):

How bad would this be to do myself? I’ve done other plumbing. How do I break the connection I see a few feet down there on the side of the casing? How do I know for sure I have all the parts I need? I am looking at various Gould and Dayton brand submersible pumps, 2 wire, 240 VAC, 1/2 HP, looking at the deliveries for different height and delivery pressures, and it’s all more GPM than anything in my house uses.

And what holds the pump in place, down there? It looks like it is just hanging, and so does it thrash around when it starts and stops, and crash into the casing and flex its connection points and everything?

Is there a good web site explaining what it’s like installing your own?

BTW my well cap has written on its underside “20#” where # is a splotch of paint, and also a little distance away what looks mostly like “4gpm” (the first character is definitely a 4 and it looks more like “49pm” but that wouldn’t make sense).

I know about putting plumber’s wrenches on the plastic pipe to hold it so you can rest while pulling it out. What does this thing weigh, with all that line on it? I could arrange a tripod, and/or get some kind of pulley setup going with the nylon rope in the well and with my tractor.

18

[QUOTE=Napier]
More info. A plumber with a medium sized Yellow Pages ad saying “Specializing in Well Pump Replacement” came out and watched it cycle once with an amprobe on it, and diagnosed “Well pump has bad spot on motor. Pump would run and draw 22 amps then shut off on overload, then turn back on.” They suggest it will fail soon but don’t know how soon. This all sounds reasonable, except the “bad spot on motor” part (I don’t think anything’s down there moving it to a good spot so it can run eventually). But it’s a manner of speaking, I guess.

They recommend removing and replacing it with “Premium Goulds 1/2 hp 5 gpm pump, 200’ of #12 Premium wire, 5 years warranty, chlorination of well and new stainless steel male adapters on well.” for $2384.97. They offered to do it on the spot but I deferred because I don’t actually have that available right now. They left but called back and offered 10% off. Does this price sound fair?
[/QUOTE]

Your chances of being able to pull a new wire are very good. You would install the pump into the well with enough slack to reach wherever you plan on mounting the control box inside(within a few feet of the tank and pressure switch). Then use the old wire to pull it through. Your contractor may or may not do this for you or ask you to get an electrician instead.

It’s common for the so called well water experts like myself to use explanations like bad spot on the motor because either it might be a simple enough explanation to make sense to the customer or thats what we were given as an explanation for that failure when they were trained. We aren’t electrical engineers and don’t necessarily understand all the technical details and terms of a motor failure. It’s a business where on the job experience means a lot, you simply know what needs to be done to correct a problem. That said, the pump has a thermal overload built into it so while trying to force the motor to spin this will pop on and off on the ‘bad spot’ its drawing so much current forcing it to spin on a certain point the thermal will heat up then cool down rapidly each time it might get the motor to spin a half inch or so, eventually it gets to a ‘good’ spot the motor will make a 3/4 rotation which might be enough momentum to carry it around passed the ‘bad’ spot. A bad spot isn’t necessarily part of the coil it could be a ground up bearing or something that creates to much friction for the pump to start under.

I’m not sure what their premium means. The pump I would use is a Gould’s 5GS05.
Its a stainless steel pump. I would replace the pipe with 200# poly pipe(many guys use 160#) I still use brass adapters I’ve never seen one thats worn out without extraordinary circumstances. The pump has a check valve built into it that is not spring loaded I always install an additional spring loaded one at the top of the pump.

If their estimate includes the pipe it would be inline with my pricing. I do charge more then my competitors in the area. If you needed to get it done cheaper you could shop around.

19

[QUOTE=Napier]
MORE questions (sorry):

How bad would this be to do myself? I’ve done other plumbing. How do I break the connection I see a few feet down there on the side of the casing? How do I know for sure I have all the parts I need? I am looking at various Gould and Dayton brand submersible pumps, 2 wire, 240 VAC, 1/2 HP, looking at the deliveries for different height and delivery pressures, and it’s all more GPM than anything in my house uses.

And what holds the pump in place, down there? It looks like it is just hanging, and so does it thrash around when it starts and stops, and crash into the casing and flex its connection points and everything?

Is there a good web site explaining what it’s like installing your own?

BTW my well cap has written on its underside “20#” where # is a splotch of paint, and also a little distance away what looks mostly like “4gpm” (the first character is definitely a 4 and it looks more like “49pm” but that wouldn’t make sense).

I know about putting plumber’s wrenches on the plastic pipe to hold it so you can rest while pulling it out. What does this thing weigh, with all that line on it? I could arrange a tripod, and/or get some kind of pulley setup going with the nylon rope in the well and with my tractor.
[/QUOTE]

You might be able to do it yourself(and a buddy). If you want to go that route let me know and I’ll pm you a phone number. To much to explain in text.

Typically you drill the well till you get the capacity you need and you size the pump based on the capacity of the well. While it may be more then any one thing in your house needs keep in mind you might want to be able to run more then one thing at a time.

I’m not sure what the 20# is. Maybe it was a 220# for the depth of the well? The 4gpm is the wells capacity. It is the rate at which the well refills with water. So you could run 4gpm continuously without running it dry. Write that number down in your home records it could be important someday.

The pump is attached via a pitless adapter. It is a simple slip joint the part on the side of the well is a female the part the pump attaches to is a male. It has a 1 inch female pipe thread in the top. I use a tool called a T-handle with a male thread on it You thread it into the female and pull it up and with it comes the pump.

Yes it simply hangs in the well. It has a ‘pump torc’ just above the pump it is a rubber device the protect the pump from banging around. The motor is pretty durable so even if it bounces off the well a few times it isn’t going to suffer much. Only during start up does it move. Once it is running it stays centered. The main issue with the set up is the wires can get damaged. I sleeve the first 30 feet with pipe to help protect them. The wire is taped to the drop pipe(I use about 10 rolls of electrical tape in a standard installation). Also you use nylon wire guards on the pipe that they are about 4 inches in diameter so the pipe can’t hit the side of the well.

How much it weighs(to you) depends allot on your static level. If the well was empty and the pipe was full of water you’d be at about 600 pounds. While lighter then that because most of it is in water it can still be quite heavy. I could pull that with a helper dragging the pipe away from me. Most physical people could do it but would be quite sore after doing so. It is an unusual position to be lifting.

I do not know any specific sites for looking this stuff up you can wander around http://www.goulds.com/ They certainly have allot of data I’m not sure how usefull it will be to you.

20

Thanks, boytyperanma.

I’m chewing on the idea of spending this much. But, I’m afraid it may be the wisest choice.

I’m surprised how simple it looks when I look down inside the casing. For instance, the wire hangs by itself for quite a long distance, and a few feet down I see the sheath cut back and the two conductors joined with wirenuts. There’s nothing but the wires, spreading at 180 degrees as they leave the wirenuts obviously under a fair bit of tension. I’d have thought there’d be some electrical tape and some way of carrying the force around the wirenuts, some kind of strain relief or at least a cord splinted alongside them. The wirenuts look like they want to pop vigorously off.

I think the 20# is a number like 202 or 208, meaning the depth in feet. There’s no octothorp written there, I just thought the octothorp character looked the most like the paint splotch that’s hiding the last digit.

Wow. Lotta money. Not to say this isn’t the going rate. It’s just that I gave Mrs. Napier $800 yesterday and spent a grand on car repairs last month and $2000 on taxes the month before. You know the story. I wonder how many days I have to figure this out.

Thanks again for the information and all the helpfulness. I hope your customers appreciate your approach as much as I do - or that in some weird cosmic internet way I’m inadvertantly hiring you to do my well - maybe one of us is using a fake “Location” entry. Well, thanks, in any case! At least I have a sanity check, which is not easy to get otherwise!