Is North Korea ready to commit "State Suicide" ?

Nope, I’m not. The ruling elite have chosen to do a lot of things that have had horribly negative repercussions on the general populace. They are responsible for those atrocities. However, saying “oo, how mean the Norks are to keep their people in the dark at night!” is disingenuous when it’s our sanctions that have a lot to do with lack of fuel in that nation.

Well, I left a lot out because I am writing posts on a message board rather than a treatise on North Korea. As you point out, if you read that post in context with my others in this thread a lot of the “left out” stuff is actually very much there.

It’s been my observation that some humanitarian aid is always diverted. In the case of North Korea they made very clear both to their own people and the outside world that they would feed the army first. Why was anyone surprised when they did exactly that?

Part of the problem (as I see it) is that the outside world keeps doubting the North Koreans mean what they say. They’re actually pretty blunt and direct on some issues. The only way to get humanitarian aid to the civilians of North Korea is to provide enough that there is a surplus over what the army needs. Keep that in mind the next time someone proposes sending food or fuel or medicine there.

China has an incentive to go around the sanctions because if North Korea implodes or falls THEY are the ones who will be facing millions of refugees coming over the Tumen and Amnok rivers into their territory. China has a significant incentive to do something to prevent that, including doing an end run around sanctions that might result in millions of starving people invading their nation. I can’t really fault them for acting in their own self interest.

Again – the North Koreans have made it abundantly clear since the fall of the Soviet Union that their military comes first. They’re have been extremely plain spoken about this, and have even directly communicated this to the populace. The military eats first in that nation. There has been no subterfuge, no lying, no equivocation. The only reason anyone has even been surprised by that is because they somehow doubted the government meant what they said. Well, it turns out they didn’t, they really meant “the military eats first”. The military also gets fuel first, medicine first, everything first. We don’t happen to think that’s the way to do things but they do. That is how that nation is run. I think the governments of the world understand that better than the average person does, which is why there has been such restraint when North Korea bombs islands or sinks ships. At a certain point it’s not just bluster and propaganda anymore, they really do mean what they say.

The form those sanctions take, however, is on us. We should also acknowledge that we are backing North Korea into a corner. The rest of the world assumes that eventually they’ll back down and submit, but what if they don’t?

No, strictly speaking the famines were not their fault. There really were natural disasters that triggered those food shortages. How the famines were dealt with, yes, that’s their responsibility but they had some bad years due to circumstances beyond their control.

First, in the early 1990’s the collapse of the Soviet union resulted in a sharp reduction in aid, and also forced the North Koreans to pay true market prices for things like fertilizer, which sharply impacted their agricultural output. China tried to fill the gap by providing food at reduced prices, as well as fuel and fertilizer, but when 1993 rolled around China fell short in its own grain production, and also needed more hard currency of their own, and felt forced to cut aid to North Korea. That was bad enough, and did lead to food shortages, but not actual full out famine. THEN, in 1995, North Korea suffered massive flooding between July and August that wiped out much of that year’s production prior as well as an estimated 1.5 millions tons of grain stored underground that was destroyed by flood waters.

North Korea had no control over the collapse of the Soviet Union, the agricultural problems of their largest supporter (China), nor were they responsible for natural disaster in the form of the worst flooding seen in at least 70 years. They had grain reserves, but much of them were destroyed by natural disaster. Eventually, they did go to the rest of the world for aid, including their long-time nemesis the United States (food shipments with the US flag were explained as “tribute” to the civilian populace).

Yes, they were jackholes about a lot of things but the famines were not something they engineered. They did learn something, however. When flooding occurred again in the summer of 2007, killing thousands outright and wiping out 20% of the rice and 15% of the corn fields, North Korea immediately asked for aid from the outside world instead of waiting as it had in the 1990’s. Of course, they made no acknowledgement of outside aid, that’s not how they work, but it does seem that the ruling powers do want to keep the people fed at least at subsistence levels. Their swift action in 2007 prevented another famine such as seen in the 1990’s.

By what right do we dictate how another country is ruled? The sanctions have not been imposed because of how North Korea treats its own, it’s because of how North Korea treats everyone else. If all they did was abuse their own people they’d be ignored, just as so many other dictatorships have been largely ignored as long as they didn’t threaten anyone beyond their borders. The latest round of sanctions weren’t imposed because there are 200,000 people in labor camps being slowly worked and starved to death, they were imposed because North Korea tested another nuke and is test-firing missiles.

Except that the official history taught for a couple generations in North Korea is that the South launched an unprovoked attacked on the North, not vice versa as actually happened. And the South did so as the poor, deceived puppets of the Yankee Bastards or whatever they’re calling us these days

Ah, but don’t you see? The entire North Korean populace has been taught for decades that it’s not their fault, they didn’t attack anyone, they were just defending themselves from unprovoked slaughter. They’re taught that the ONLY thing keeping that from happening again is their strong leader (whichever Kim is in power at the time). Name an atrocity you care to think of, the North Koreans have been taught that that is what will happen to them if the government at Pongyang ever falls. It’s a pretty powerful sort of fear, and it’s why a lot of the civilian populace do seem sincere in their support for the “Dear Leader”.

No, that is on them.

Who said they were “deeply” concerned? They aren’t interested in bringing luxury to the masses, just keeping them adequately fed to enable them to work productively. Those are two different things. By keeping the people poor they can use small luxuries as powerful incentives, they have no interest in doing more than that. That’s not incompatible with the rulers having decadent wealth. Actually, for most of human history that’s been the norm. You keep the peasants well-fed enough to work and not be too rebellious and the rulers get the real goodies. They rulers care somewhat, but not a great deal. The rulers of the DPRK recognize it’s in their self-interest to NOT let millions starve to death, so they have acted to prevent that happening again.

Thanks for the reasoned response, Broomstick…appreciate it. Just a drive by here in response, as I’m running between meetings.

[QUOTE=Broomstick]
No, strictly speaking the famines were not their fault. There really were natural disasters that triggered those food shortages. How the famines were dealt with, yes, that’s their responsibility but they had some bad years due to circumstances beyond their control.
[/QUOTE]

Totally disagree. There were certainly natural causes for the food shortages, but the FAMINE was absolutely the NK governments fault. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Even pretending that they didn’t have the resources to simply buy food (which they did), simply asking the world community for humanitarian aid and declaring a humanitarian emergency/crisis should have been their first response…and it would have gotten them the aid they needed pretty quickly. Instead, they chose a different path, one that attempted to hide what was going on why amping up tensions and hostility.

But, you see, the fact that they didn’t do this during the first crisis was absolutely their governments fault, since those same options were available to them the first time. There have been times when the North has refused aid because the aid was stamped with the names of other countries. This is equivalent to saying that it’s not the parents fault if the kids starve because bad things happened and the parents refused to ask for help. Yeah, the parents didn’t have control of bad things happening, but they DID have control of whether or not they were too freaking stupid, stubborn and bloody minded TOO ask for help. :smack:

And you were wondering why people don’t believe what the North Koreans say.

Doesn’t this contradict the part about how the military eats first? Even if the civilians starve to death so they can’t work, the military still gets the food.

Same with the idea that it is because of the sanctions that the NK is on the ragged edge of starvation. Even when the West lifts the sanctions and sends humanitarian aid, they still divert it to the military. They apparently are going to short-change their civilians no matter what sanctions are in place, or aren’t in place.

No, not even slightly disingenuous. If we lifted the sanctions on fuel, it would go to their military just like the food does, or else Kim Jong-whoever would steal it, sell it on the black market, and use the money to build more nukes.

The people of North Korea are going to suffer and starve, sanctions or no, as long as they are run by a lunatic Marxist dictatorship.

Regards,
Shodan

I quite understand, this will probably be my last post for awhile here as I have real life stuff to do, too.

For decades the North Koreans had an official policy of self-reliance (not always followed in actual practice, of course). Admitting they had to turn to others for help posed a threatening problem to the rulers, as it would be tantamount to admitting they weren’t in control, couldn’t handle the situation, and weren’t actually what was keeping the enemy at bay.

Once they figured out they could explain aid stamped with the names of their enemy nations as either “captured” or “tribute” they became much more willing to accept it, because accepting it was proof of their power and propped up the regime rather than threatening it.

It looks somewhat between ridiculous and criminal from our viewpoint, but not from their viewpoint.

Correct. However, they now have a work-around for that compatible for their system which is why they ask for help much more readily.

North Korea is not a democracy. The leaders don’t have to worry about being elected. They are reluctant to cut their own throats if they can find a different way to do things.

I’m not saying they’re good people - by our definitions, they’re not. I’m saying that there is a certain logic to what they do, but it requires you understand where they’re coming from rather than trying to superimpose our values over theirs.

Just because they lie about some things does not mean they lie about all. The problem is figuring out which is which.

Yes. That is true. I have stated that you can not give aid to North Korean civilians without giving it to the military. The official name of the policy is called “songun”, please do look it up. The military gets first dibs on all resources. This has been in effect since 1994.

They aren’t Marxist.

They aren’t “lunatic”. They do operate on vastly different values than we do, but that doesn’t make them crazy, just different.

They are a dictatorship, but much more like a divine monarchy or imperial cult than the typical dictatorship of the 20th Century. That’s different than what prevailed under Stalin or Mao.

I don’t understand the disingenuous angle to this. They started a war using support from other nations and it’s our fault they suck because we won’t trade with them? They rely on South Korean investment and business management to employ their own people. This is a self inflicted wound. They crazy guy waving a gun around is a megalomaniac passed down as a legacy from the previous one. He is the reason they suck. They have all the resources they need to survive as a people. There is nothing stopping NK from being well fed.

The bottom line is that it hardly matters what type of game the North Koreans are playing, why they’re playing it or what they expect out of it. We should not be playing their game. In fact, we should be doing what we can (and we are) to encourage their game to fail miserably.

Not only that, North Korea was the very epitome of biting the hand that feeds you in 1995 when South Korea and Japan were trying to give North Korea hundreds of thousands of tons of food aid.

Japan, Seoul Find Giving Rice to Pyongyang Isn’t Easy : Asia: S. Korea protests having to fly N. Korean flag on ship.

Korean Rice Aid Is Largely Feeding Tensions

Unfortunately “cults” different values can include remaining pure unto death to an ideal rather than become compromised to such a corrupted worldly goal as mere survival. That’s close enough to lunatic that I don’t care about the difference.

See:

http://www.northkoreanow.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/electricity.jpg

Note that the date of this graphic is 2003.

Sanctions began in 2006.

There are undoubtedly multiple reasons for their bad economic performance. Some of this will be clarified in years following the fall of the regime (all regimes will fall eventually). Based on reading two excellent books* on North Korea last year, I’d point to two factors on top of the inefficiencies of any highly socialist system:

– Pervasive fear.

– Caste system. If you are born in Camp 14, you die in Camp 14.


Are you claiming that this North Korean version of history is true?

If not, how is this relevant? If the North Korean government is lying to the North Korean people, it’s just another piece of evidence that the North Korean government is at fault for their situation.

Or are you claiming that the American government has forced North Korea to tell lies?

The irony in this is that when Korea was divided in half, the expectation was that South Korea would be a failed state. Prior to the division of the country, almost all of Korea’s industry was in the northern half of the country and the southern half of the country was considered backwards farmland.

Don’t be stupid. Of course it’s not true - stating that “X has taught Y that Z is true” is not at all the same thing as believing yourself that Z is true.

That’s always the problem with discussing other viewpoints - someone always assumes that because you’re trying to understand someone else you’re agreeing with them. I’m not. Their system is reprehensible and about 180 degrees from my morality and what I think is the proper way to run a society. Too many people dismiss them as crazy or insane when what they really are is very different. I’d rather try to understand them, but don’t ever, ever think that means I agree with them.

One of the problems with the US/North Korean situation is that we don’t understand them, and I doubt they understand us either. Therefore, one side does something expecting the other side to react a certain way and that other side doesn’t. When the two sides are as hostile as in this situation that’s not a good situation.

Actually, for about the first 15-20 years after the division the North enjoyed a higher standard of living than the south. At the start of all this the North did look better off.

Of course, we all know that changed.

And… the news is reporting this morning that the US was flying stealth bombers over Korea.

OK… given the situation, why would the US announce that? Was there a point to that? Is there anyone, at this point, who doesn’t know that B-2’s based in Missouri can fly anywhere in the world and drop bombs? They’re supposed to be stealth, right? Announcing this is like saying “LOOK AT THE INVISIBLE MAN OVER THERE!!!” after throwing a bucket of paint over him. Isn’t the point of having a “stealth” anything is to NOT make it obvious what you’re doing with them?

At this point I can’t see this as doing anything other than pissing off the Norks. Oh, sure, there’s a role for B-2’s in war games but this is basically rubbing Pongyang’s face in it. Way to lessen tension, guys!

Over South Korea, I believe. I guess with two fleets off the Iranian coast the navy is busy.

Those B2’s don’t need to fly from the US do they, why can’t they be based temporarily in South Korea?

Not really. The point of stealth aircraft is that they are hard to locate accurately using radar and other detection systems, and therefore hard to shoot down.

The B2s flew over and dropped dummy bombs on S. Korea not North. Its presumably just couter-sabre rattling to reaffirm we’ll respond if S. Korea is attacked.

Plus the B2 cost a bajillion dollars so the airforce likes to use them every once and a while to pretend they have a reason to exist.

The B2’s have always been based in the mainland US, they’ve never been staged from anywhere else. I think it is in part to protect the technology. Certainly, maintenence on the B2’s is easier if they have a permanent rather than temporary base, and “in the middle of the CONUS” is about as safe as these things can get.

And yes, I know it was over South Korea but I don’t see the point in announcing it. Sure, if someone spots one shrug and say “yeah, part of wargames” but I don’t see where trumpeting it is going to keep things moderate.

Announcing?

Well, some might think the difference between North and South does matter just a little bit: One nation being a close ally and the other being a batshit crazy attention-seeking loverboy threatening military action from under a haircut that’s enough to make an 80s Manchester band think twice.