This is an interesting question. I have another one, something I’ve wondered about.
First, let me state that I believe kiddie porn, is reprehensable. Anyone who produces or consumes it should be locked up for a very long time.
If we’re clear on that, I’ll continue. You hear references to kiddie porn a lot. Some have been made above. If you listen to some groups, you would get the impression that logging on to the internet automaticly causes you to be deluged with it. In spite of this, I’ve never seen any. ( and I DON’T want to.)I am active on the net, and sometimes I visit porn sites, yet I have never seen any of what is supposedly a huge problem. Is this a case of mass hysteria? If such images are rare, ( I do not doubt that they exist) why is it held up as a big thing? The only possable explanation I’ve been able to come up with is that because almost everyone would agree that it is wrong, it is paraded by people who are anti-porn to provoke others into opposing all porn. Thoughts anyone?
Okay, here’s my two cents on the “is porn evil” issue:
Pornography panders to – and could even be said to abuse – an otherwise useful human instinct. Humans, particularly men, respond with sexual desire toward visual images of sexy people that appear to be sending come-hither signals to the viewer. Before pictures were invented, the only thing that could create a viusal image of a sexy person sending come-hither signals to the viewer was a REAL, live, sexy person sending come-hither signals to the viewer. The male instinct to be aroused by such a sight increased his chances of spreading his genes around, and thus genes containing a genetic basis for that instinct would have a better chance of being spread to the next generation than genes without a genetic basis for that instinct. This is what Darwin and company refer to as “selection pressure”; eventually, over enough generations, the gene that hardwired the sex drive to the receipt of sexy visual images would sweep to fixation through the population, driving out people without the gene. (Okay, technically, a gene is a specific place on a chromosome, and a variant of a gene that codes or doesn’t code for some trait is called an allele. So I’m using the language somewhat incorrectly. But I digress.)
Realistic pictures have only been with us for a couple thousand years at most. Photography has been with us for less than two centuries. This just isn’t enough time for the visual-imagery-turn-on genes to evolve a “defense” against sexy photographs or movies. Porn triggers areas of the psyche that exist for reasons completely unrelated to porn. In that sense, porn is like recreational drugs, in that both cause psychological and physiological reactions that originally evolved to deal with very different stimuli.
Does this mean porn is evil? No more than it means LSD or cocaine are evil. Does this mean porn can be abused? Most definitely. Does this mean that porn thrown at someone who was not seeking it is as immoral as making someone try addictive drugs? Absolutely.
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.
Several people here have implied that women would only appear in pornography because they have no other choice. In actuality, these women generally feel that pornography is a viable career choice. As others have noted, in the adult video business the actresses call the shots. They usually have veto control over who they work with and can earn hundreds of dollars for a day’s work.
So here’s the situation. You’re given a choice of a number of people. You’re allowed to pick out the ones you find most attractive. You get to spend several hours having sex with these people. Then you get paid a thousand dollars. Can someone explain how this business is exploitive?
I realize that there are stigmas that are attached to working in pornography. But generally these are the products of society not of the adult entertainment industry.
I seem to recall reading an interview with former porn star Marilyn Chambers, who described working conditions nothing like what you set out above. Unfortunately, I do not have a specific cite for her interview, but I am nonetheless certain I remember the substance of her report, which was, as I say, not positive.
Pita – none of my business… but I find myself curious. How long have you been married? And – is there any chance that it wasn’t him? That is, that someone else… kids, perhaps…were the ones hitting this disturbing site?
If I logged in on my SO’s computer and found some porn sites bookmarked, I would really be mad.
I’d be mad she didn’t feel open enough to share her interests with me!
Not that I would necessarily indulge, but really, I would not be threatened by my lover digging pornography, and I would hope it would be something that she would feel comfortable to share with me.
Well… it seems to me we could as easily speculate that the women giving glowing reports about the porn industry are “being paid big $$” to say what they are.
Is there anything more definitive?
Your experience of the food industry will be markedly different if you work at Taco Bell or work at The Palm (a very upscale DC restuarant). I am willing to believe Marilyn’s tales of woe are at least credible, and also that there are women who have a very positive experience doing the job.
The reason you’re not deluged with kiddie-porn on the 'net is that it isn’t tolerated. As I mentioned in a previous post, adult webmasters are rather conservative. The top webmasters are making millions in the porn biz and kiddie-porn is dangerous to their business. They check each other’s sites (checking out the competition) and sites of smaller webmasters who are just making some extra spending money (potenetial new advertising outlets). They have the clout to have illegal-content sites shut down; sometimes even if it’s on a foreign server.
It works like this: “Mr. Server, This site has illegal (or or distasteful) content. You can keep his piddley little site on your server, but if you do I’m going to move to a different server and you’ll lose the thousands of doallars you’re making off me. Other large accounts will also cancel.”
My friend the webmaster told me of a site called nazisluts.com. He said there was nothing illegal on it; just some B&D. He said it was funny, “Hogan’s Heros”-type stuff. But large webmasters objected to it because of the Holocaust and had it shut down. They have that kind of power.
That’s why you don’t see kiddie porn all over the place. I’m sure you can find it if you look hard enough. But why would you?
Scylla–
While I’m sure there are instances of naive young women getting into porn without meaning to, I can’t believe that a woman gets tricked into taking off all her clothes and having sex with a guy (possibly several) in a room full of people, with lights and cameras, without knowing exactly what she is doing. And I also believe that the industry has changed from the time that Marilyn Chambers was really active in it. I mean, industry in the US at the turn of the century exploited children, does that mean that it’s still that way today? While some exploitation may take place in the adult industry today, I think this is an aspect that is highly overblown by anti-porn supporters.
Tassey–
I’ll also agree that you are falsely blaming porn for the failure of your relationship. If your husband was turning to porn, could that have been because of some underlying dis-satisfaction in your physical relationship?..Perhaps he was fantasizing about things you wouldn’t do, and eventually, found someone that would do those things. A lack of communication and understanding broke up your marriage, not pornography.
PITA–
A few thoughts on your situation
I somewhat agree with andros in that we have separate accounts, and separate e-mail address’s. While I’ll gladly show her and tell her anything she want’s to know, I’d be upset if I thought she was snooping through my things.
Sometimes it’s easier to have a fantasy that you do online, than in real life. For example, suppose he was into D/S…he like to play the Master/Slave fantasy…online, it’s easier…he can imagine anything he wants, maybe find someone to chat with that’s into it, but the bottom line, is that it’s not real. If he indulged these things with you, he may feel bad about doing these things…worry about hurting you. So it would take away from his pleasure. Online, the other person may not have actually done any of those things, but the pics make it look like it…Do you see the distinction?..I know I’m not being terribly clear here, I hope that you understand my meaning, not the poor way I’ve stated it.
If you’re not into those things, then perhaps the best idea would be to casually let him know that you know about it, and let him continue to pursue his online activities…as long as he doesn’t feel like you’re condemning him, or making a judgment about those desires’ that he has, it’ll probably be no big deal. But if he perceives that you think he’s a sick pervert, that may lead to feelings of guilt and a suppression of a desire. I don’t know if you can stop being turned on by something, but if he thinks it’s unacceptable to you, he may bury them, and that could result in problems down the line.
I think it might be best if you proceed cautiously. Best of luck…
Exactly, Atrael.
I think some women in this country (and some men, too) simply can not grasp the fact that these women just like to fuck. Plain and simple. They like the work, they like the money. Why is that so hard to understand?
They delude themselves into thinking “These poor young, girls, look how they are being used…”. Why? Is sex so repulsive to them? Do they feel threatened by a women who enjoys pleasure? Get over it. Get laid. Jeez, loosen up already.
And as far as the hypothetical on your SO interested in stuff you were unaware of. That sounds like a dangerous relationship, all around. If you are going to spend your life, share your life, with another person, why should you have to hide any parts of yourself? Outside, of course, of kiddie and anything illegal, if you fantasize about it, you should expect your SO to, at the very least, accept and understand it. Ideally to indulge in it.
Always be ready to speak your mind and a base man will avoid you.
-William Blake
I can easily distinguish the cases. Child labor laws were a driving force in reducing the exploitation of children. Where is the equivalent driving force in the porn industry?
Look, if Marilyn Chambers comes along and says, “Here were my experiences,” I would argue that I’ve at least made a prima facie case for abuse in the industry, and it falls to you to show why her experiences aren’t relevant or true any longer. You’ve simply said, “I believe.”
Well, I don’t believe. Let’s trot some evidence out here.
A gratuitous assertion may be equally gratuitously denied.
The reason I didn’t cite your post was that I was going for the evolutionary angle, i.e. why these instincts are there to begin with. Okay, that’s a lie. The reason I didn’t cite you was that I was lazy and I didn’t want to wade through the whole thread before I got on my soapbox.
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.
I’m breaking this into two sections, to address them separately. I will attempt to find you some sites, but wanted to get my first thoughts on here. Perhaps there is not an equivalent driving force to stop the exploitation of porn stars, because there is no exploitation I mean, if this were as prevalent, and as hideous a situation as described, I’m sure there would be strong legislature to stop it. With a lack of such high-profile actions being taken, I feel comfortable in stating that it may not be as big a problem as is believed.
You have not made a prima facie case…all you’ve done is to quote one statement from one person…If I say that I had a terrible time in the Military, does that mean that it’s bad?..That I had to work long hours for bad pay…that I was mis-led by my recruiter told that I would have an easy time while making lots of money, and traveling around the world. And ended up serving 6 years until I could free myself from the enslavement that my contract entailed. Would this statement be enough for you to say that the military was evil, and that it leads people to lives of corruption and debauchery?..No, because that would be based on my experience. BTW, none of that was true, I had a great time while in the service.
However, in the interest of Great Debates, I will do some searching and give appropriate links to perhaps uphold my viewpoint
I would certainly agree that you’d raised a prima facie claim that some recruiters lie!
I look forward to seeing something – I don’t even know where to look! – that paints an unbiased picture of the lives of porn performers, and whether it’s a positive experience for them. And I’d especially be interested in the ‘non-stars’ - it’s no big deal to say that the 2000-equivalent of Marilyn Chambers is treated well – how about the ‘third girl from left in main orgy scene’?
Jesus, dude, she started a thread about it! If she were any more open, this’d be a vivisection! Heh.
It seems most people who rail against porn are the same people who rail against violence on TV and in the movies. They refuse to assign any blame to the people who commit the crimes. It’s as easy as this; some people simply are not wired right. If they act out violent fantasies on people who are not willing participants in the fantasy, the problem is with the perpetrator of the crime, not porn. The desire to act out the fantasy is within him or her, and the problem arises when the person is either too weak to stop himself ar simply has no desire to stop. It’s the same as any other addiction. The vast majority of people who partake of the sex industry and do not commit sex crimes should be proof positive that porn is not a mind-altering, behavior controlling drug.
And for the girls who get into it without knowing what it’s all about? Bullshit. You cannot honestly tell me that girls get naked and perform oral sex because they think it’ll score them the lead in the next Kevin Smith movie (although with Jay, you never know). They do it because they enjoy the money, they enjoy having sex,they have a drug habit to feed, because they have willfully deceived themselves about the world they’re working in or because they have self-esteem low enough to be looked down upon by sugar ants. If they do not want to be in the porn business, it’s not mandatory that they be in it. There are no “porn press gangs” roving the streets of our cities, forcing people into the porn business (and if you see any, let me know so that I can arrange to “accidentally” cross their path). These people made a conscious choice to have sex for money on film. Pure and simple. For whatever reason, they made the choice. If they are unhappy in it, then they should take a good look at what they were missing when they got into it, instead of bitching about their lives afterward and conveniently blaming an intangible.
C’mon, now, I know Marilyn Chambers is busty, but I don’t think it’s really fair to call her a cliff…
He weathered a firestorm of agony and did not break.
And while Yori raged against his unbending
courage, we took Kyuden Hiruma back.
His loss is great, but so is the gift his suffering brought.
-Yakamo’s Funeral
