What's wrong with pornography?

Great Debates
1

OK, I realize the odds of me starting a new thread on a subject that hasn’t already been discussed to death are somewhere between slim to none, but hope springs eternal…

If we ignore the religious prohibitions against pornography (i.e., pronography is bad because God said so), are there any good arguments against it? For the sake of this discussion, btw, I’m referring exclusively to pornography that depicts women in sexual situations. There may very well be some cogent arguments against gay porn or animal porn, but I really can’t speak from experience on those topics.

In my personal experience (and let me digress enough to state that I’m a 35-year-old heterosexual male who was raised in a strict religious household but is currently non-religious, and I have seen my share of pornography over the years), there are two main reasons why pornography is “bad” from a societal standpoint:

  1. Pornography objectifies women. In other words, pornography makes (or encourages, at the very least) men focus on the sexual aspects of women to the exclusion of the rest of their aspects as women and people in general. The more men are exposed to pornography, the more likely they are to look at women in terms of “good lay vs. bad lay” and ignore everything else about them. This is especially problematic with porn that involves abuse, but I think it is also a problem with standard “white bread” porn that simply shows sex between consenting adults. In either case, the man watching the porn becomes conditioned to become sexually aroused solely based on a women’s looks, and to value a women based solely on looks.

  2. Pornography presents an unrealistic image of women. Pornography generally doesn’t involve “real” women – the women involved tend to have artifically enhanced bodies, and act in an artificial way. Men who watch pornography on a regular basis therefore may start to expect all women to look and behave this way. Speaking strictly from experience, I know that the more porn I watched, the harder it was for me to be attracted to real women.

The two arguments outlined above are, of course, overly simplistic and general. But I would be interested in seeing what other people have to say on the subject. And yes, I am aware that both of those arguments would apply just as well to mainstream advertising these days…

Regards,

Barry

2

I think you answered your own question quite well.
While I am not strictly against pornography I’m not an advocate for it either. I tend to think (although I have no factual proof to offer) that it does more harm to society and individuals in general then it could ever do good.

I guess I need to buff up my fact finding skills if I’m going to hang around here huh?

3

Pornography can be bad, very bad, but the mere fact that people have sex in front of a camera does not oppress women.

4

Errrr… who said anything about oppressing women?

5

**What’s wrong with pornography?? **

Its immoral, indecent and too damn expensive!

6

If you don’t think objectifying women and viewing them as sex objects is oppressive, fine, just insert that instead of “oppressing”.

7

Just out of curiousity, can I be offended at those Harlequin Romance-type romance novels for objectifying men and resenting an unrealistic image of men?

8

I do not think that viewing women as sex objects is oppressive. Please tell me how it is oppressive. In return I will suggest why it is not a bad thing. And note: here I am talking about the ‘worst’ kind of porn: Hustler, XXX videos, and so on. There is a huge variety of porn available, some of which is made for and by feminist women. That I will save for a different discussion.

Porn benefits the user by giving him a safe outlet for his urges. How else would you have him deal with his sexual frustration? “Ignore it and hope it goes away” is not an option for any man I have ever met. “Find an actual woman to treat as a sex object” is also not a good idea.

The suggestion that the women who appear in pornography are oppressed is, in itself, oppressive. Can we assume that they are all being ‘exploited’? That none of them choose to be porn stars, that they don’t enjoy it, that they are doing it against their will? Do you understand their motivations better than they do?

What is the alternative to pornography? Banning it? I suspect that it would work as well as, oh, banning alcohol, or hard drugs. There has been porn for as long as there have been people. Morals which are embedded in a specific social and cultural time and space (like, “my 20th century liberal Western ideals tell me that porn oppresses women,”) cannot really address something as timeless and universal as pornography.

On a personal note, the men I have dated who are into porn have been better lovers: more imaginative, less inhibited, and less insecure (I guess once a guy has seen Ron Jeremy he’s less concerned with being a buff hunk).

Your mileage, of course, may vary.

9

Well, my argument is that porn is not necessarily a “safe” outlet if it leads to socially dangerous attitudes and behaviors.

I happen to agree with you on this topic, which is why I bristled when errata referred to women being “oppressed.” If a woman enjoys being a porn star, is well paid for it, and is doing it of her own free will, I hardly think she is being “oppressed” or “exploited.” But I do think she is contributing to a problem that may cause other women to be oppressed or exploited by men who get funny ideas of what women are “really” like.

Hey – I didn’t say I had a solution to the problem. I just wanted to see if there was a consensus as to whether or not there actually is a problem in the first place…

Barry

10

Politically, I don’t have a problem with porn. Or Battle bots. Personally, I don’t get it - and I doubt it does anyone in a good.

Additionally, with porn, I think there are two particularly disturbing issues.

  1. It’s hard on women. It’s hard on women because it’s hard on women, and because society, in general, considers women in the sex industry scum. If you don’t think so, ask someone in family law how often a woman who has even a minor history in the sex industry has an easy-peasy time getting custody of her children. (Actually, it’s probably hard on men, too, but I never have to deal with them.)
    On messages boards and in feminist mags, one hears a lot about empowerment and what have you. I’ve met two topless dancers who seemed okay - and I met them socially, when I was a scenester and met plenty of other dancers who were, messed up. I’m not sure if being a prostitute or stripper is inherently damaging, or if societies attitudes are the problem, but the fact is that in American today a woman who goes into such a job is probably giving up a lot.

To me, the most disheartening thing is that women who work as dancers (I don’t really deal with many prostitutes) are obsessed with “the attention.” It’s very difficult to help them see that only attention given to you, as an individual, is worthwhile. I’ve finally gotten over being surprised when a dancer missed shift and then was shocked, shocked and hurt, to learn that one of her regulars came in, stayed, and spent his usual tab on someone else.

Being exploited by a cardboard box factory, for instance, is a terrible thing. Nonetheless, it’s just plain silly to compare the pain of a terrible job to the hardships that go along with selling your body.

Look at how people treat Anna Nicole Smith. Look at how people love to gossip about the “well-known fact” that this star or that singer used to be a stripper. People feel free to have a lurid laugh at the expense of any woman who made that choice.

  1. It might provide an alternative to maturity. My hunch is that this is not true. However, there are people in the social sciences and shrinkdom who believe that men who use porn retard their development. There are plenty of studies and papers to support this, and just as many that show the opposite. It’s worth thinking about, I believe, because it does seem that someone who has a little trouble socially, for whatever reason, might be a little less motivated to work on his problems if he can count on a regular wank with the latest installment of the itty-bitty titties series. On the other hand, maybe pay-per-view makes life a lot easier for the housepet and farm animals of a lot of socially inept guys.

I don’t think it objectifies women. There are enough women and images of women in the world to present a balanced picture. (As an aside, every notice how so many guys had someone unlikely as their first major fantasy - the cafeteria lady, their older sister’s tennis partner, a neighborlady who was the opposite of the neighborhood MILF?)

Pornography presents an unrealistic image of women in that it depicts women who are ready willing and able to do anything at anytime with anyone. The spectrum of porn is vast (mind-boggling, really). If you want porn depicting Mrs. Olsen types having sex with muffins while singing show tunes, I’m sure it’s out there. Women, if you worry that no one will find your body type attractive, go down to the local Triple XXX video store and look around. I promise that you’ll find a box with your picture on it - if that makes you feel better.

11

Premise: porn is “hard/oppressive on women.”

Fact: I am a woman.
Fact: Porn is not hard/oppressive on me.

Please restate your premise accordingly. If you change it to “porn is hard on some women,” that’s fine, just specify which women, and how it is hard on them.

I agree, society’s attitudes towards women in the sex industry is very, very bad. But I believe this is a problem with society (and quite possibly with the sex-trade industry), not with women. If a woman wants to be a porn star, why shouldn’t she be able to, without all the bullshit?

How does porn lead to socially dangerous attitudes and behaviors? I don’t get it. I understand that it often depicts women in demoralizing positions. How does this lead to any demoralizing in reality?

And, if porn does ‘retard social development’ or whatever, can we be certain that these men would be completely normal if they had no access to porn? In other words, how could we ever be able to tell if it is the cause, and not the symptom of his unbalanced/dangerous/immature tendancies? The same reasoning goes for messed-up women in the sex trade industry.

Another reason I approve of porn (or, more broadly, the sex-trade industry), I think, is it because it gives women an avenue to express their wild, uninhibited, ‘ready-and-willing’ desires. It’s the only place we can do it. Everything women hear from mainstream sources is all about not being ‘slutty,’ and respecting yourself by not sleeping with ‘just anyone’ (although this seems to have been changing, with the upsurge in women’s sex shops and women’s porn etc). Why can’t she be slutty if she wants to be? Why is it so unacceptible? How can a woman respectably give in to her urges (if she has them) in such a climate? The sex trade industry is an important space for a woman to ‘safely’ explore and express her sexual side. And she might as well profit from it, if she can. If she really enjoys dancing naked for men (or shagging in front of cameras), why shouldn’t she be able to make a living at it?

12

Any possible chance we could stay on topic here?

[Sorry if I seem a little pissy, but I purposely avoided mentioning the “pornography oppresses women” argument in my original post because (a) I don’t agree with it and (b) I knew that people would focus on that aspect to the exclusion of all else.]

Once again, my premise is that pornography is bad because of the affect it has on men, not women. While that may lead to indirect oppression of women (e.g.., if a man comes to believe that women are sex objects only fit for satisfying men’s sexual needs, that man may treat women badly as a result), that is not the thrust of my argument (no pun intended).

Pornography is bad, in my opinion, because it makes it harder for the men who watch it to form normal, healthy relationships with women. Yes, that can lead to anti-social “oppressive” behavior toward women, but it can also lead to men who simply are unable to form loving relationships with “normal” women.

Barry

13

Sorry, Godzilla, I guess I was addressing j.c. and those who say that porn is hard on women. I bristle at attempts to make us all into one big homogenous group.

So, how does porn make it harder for the men who watch it to form normal, healthy relationships with women?

14

Well, I can only speak from personal experience, which may or may not have any relevance to the rest of the male population. In fact, I was kind of hoping some of them would chime in on the subject…

Anyway, speaking just for myself, I found that the older I got and the more pornography I saw, the more obsessed I became with the outward appearance of women. Unless a woman was “sexy” looking (meaning she looked like a porn star), I had no interest in dating her. I have had lots of female friends who were not what I would consider “sexy,” but I would NEVER consider pursuing a physical relationship with them because they do not live up to the ideal of “sexiness” that has been instilled in me. It doesn’t matter how wonderful they are, what a great personality they have, etc. – if I don’t find them sexy (and my definition of sexy is extremely narrow), I have no desire to explore a physical relationship with them.

I know that this is not a particularly healthy outlook on women, but I simply didn’t know how to “force” myself to be sexually attracted to women who didn’t look like porn stars.

The good news is that things have finally changed for me. I finally met and fell in love with a wonderful woman who has a great personality, is very intelligent, and who I happen to think is very sexy (although not a porn star by any means). In fact, we are getting married at the end of this month. But I spent a LOT of time focusing on the wrong qualities and looking for something that only existed on video tape, and I think I would have been a lot happier had I never seen a single item of porn in my life.

Again, though, that’s just me…

Regards,

Barry

15

Hey! Plenty of Free Porn can be found here!

Come, admit it, you weren’t really surprised by what you saw when you clicked the link, were you?

16

I think porn is a morally neutral thing (at least as long as you keep it away from the kiddies). It’s not unlike Pokemon - some think it’s the bee’s knees, some think it’s an assault on all that is holy and is bringing about the destruction of society, and some don’t give a damn one way or the other and wish everyone on both sides of the aisle would just shut the hell up.

Porn probably does a little harm, and a little good. Some men will think all women are/should be like Playboy centerfolds, or that women are objects for their amusement. Some men will find porn a useful outlet to let off a little steam, so to speak, and will wind up happier for its existence. A little from column A, a little from column B. All in all, I doubt that society would be any better or worse if not for the existence of porn.

Okay, I take that back - without porn, I would receive far less insidious spam in my inbox. Of course, some of the most entertaining spam I get is from porn sites (“This site is approved by the United States Military! Two appendages way, way up!”), so again, it’s a wash.
Jeff

17

Well, if I use porn to the exclusion of having normal friendships with women, yeah, that would be unhealthy and lead to a life void of emotional attachment. The thing is, most people realize that pornography isn’t real. It doesn’t depict real-life situations any more than most mainstream action-adventure films.

Pornography doesn’t even give me an outlet for my sexuality. It’s a poor substitute for the real thing and only allows me to have an orgasm and fall asleep. I don’t use it every night, more like once or twice a week. It doesn’t fulfill my desire for emotional connection with another human being. It just helps me masturbate, no more or less.

I guess I’m saying that it comes down to how a person uses pornagraphy. I used to drink too much & use too many drugs. I know people who did that with me and are now able to use alcohol infrequently and moderately. If you’re not capable of using porn moderately, it’s not healthy for you as an individual. To make blanket statements like “porn is bad because it decreases the likelihood of forming intimate relationships” is over-generalizing. I’m sure that there are men who are addicted to pornography, but I’m sure that they are a small minority of porn users.

18

I just want to remind people that plenty of women (like me!) like porn, too.

19

I think that a problem with the blanket statement “what’s wrong with pornography?” is that there’s so many types of it out there. Most people won’t have a problem with Playboy or even Penthouse, but will have real troubles defending something like the brutally misogynistic “Slap Happy” movies (note: if you thought “Hustler” was bad, don’t even look up a description of this) or other films where it’s more about domination, humiliation, and doing something “extreme” (bukakke, gangbangs, DVDA…). I have no problem with the former, but I really dislike the latter as it goes way beyond the “objectifying of women” described in the OP.

20

You know, I’d say porn isn’t a bad thing, overall, but I disagree with part of what you’re saying here, cowgirl.

Specifically, the “sex trade” is not the “only place” where women can be wild and uninhibited in their sexuality. There are a number of sex-positive communities around the country, and most of them have established locations and/or events where people (men and women) are free to cut loose and express their sexuality however they see fit. Women can (very respectably) give in to any urges they see fit to explore in these communities. They are encouraged to explore whatever they would like in both words and action. If anything, I would say that the sex-positive environment in these communities is more liberating than that of the sex trade.

That said, I have no problem at all with porn, as long as its consensual (i.e. no kids, animals, etc.), and if a woman enjoys it and can make money from it, than it’s no worse than any other business. Actually, Amway is probably worse than porn. :wink: