Pornography: Bad, degrading to women (Need to debate this)

Great Debates
1

What the hell am I doing with a thread title like that?

I have been invited a public forum to discuss and debate the issues raised in the title. As those of you who know me can readily surmise, mine will be the opposite position. But I want to arm myself thoroughly.

So… if the mods don’t object, I’d like to debate this subject. And if there are not enough people who agree with the thread title, I’d like to play the devil’s advocate and argue that side of the debate just to see my brilliant fellow doper’s answers.

If anyone’s game, of course.

So…I’ll start from my normal side of the issue and say the following:

  1. Pornography in this context shall be defined as photographs and films depicting sexual acts between consenting adult human beings. (no puppies, turtles, or 10 year olds.)

  2. The existence of pornography itself is morally neutral. Sex being a natural, pleasurable, and compelling part of being alive, it is natural, virtually certain, than human beings, with their clever abilities to draw, paint, photgraph and otherwise depict things which are interesting to them, will choose to depict sex. They always have, it is virtually certain that they always will.

  3. For some people, this is a bad thing. It is perfectly ok for those people to avoid pornography, and to expect that a reasonable attempt will be made to warn others when pornography is around, especially if those “others” are children.

  4. Some people view pornography as degrading to women. It is their right to have this opinion. However, it is the right of each woman to decide for herself whether she chooses to participate in pornography or not.

  5. It is not a violation of feminist ideals to participate in the production and distribution of pornography. The feminist ideal is that women shall choose for themselves, and that is a valid choice.

Anyone care to argue these points or other related ones? I’d appreciate the help.

Ta!

stoid

2

Very convenient, but hardly apropos. Casual acceptance of “vanilla” pornography subtracts from the moral condemnation of more extreme forms. A slippery slope, basically, in which magazines with pictures of 25 year olds make it almost okay to read “Barely Legal”, which makes it seem not so bad to find pictures of 15 year olds on the Internet…

Sex in general may be morally neutral, but it doesn’t follow that pornography is. To the extent that pornography has dominant themes and aesthetics, it has a moral perspective as well. In other words, pornography’s obsession with big-busted blondes is not morally neutral, and has a damaging social effect of reinforcing negative stereotypes about beauty and worthwhile attributes in women. Moreover, pornography’s constant portrayal of women who are ridiculously sexual (i.e., lots of partners, multiple orgasms every time, ready to throw down anytime and anywhere) presents a false image of normal female sexuality that puts pressure on women to conform and creates false expectations in men; again, not morally neutral, either in intent or effect.

I can avoid pornography, but can I avoid pornography consumers? Will all the women I date be free of any sexual and relationship misconceptions derived from the consumption of pornography? Will all the men that women date be free of such an influence?

But it’s not the right of a woman to decide if a man will treat her in a degrading fashion because he believes pornography to represent a desirable state of affairs. To the extent that pornography consumption shapes attitudes, does any woman have a right, in practice, not to be affected by those attitudes, especially when those attitudes can contribute to sexual discrimination and sex crimes? Having a right in theory is irrelevant if the circumstances don’t support that right.

There’s more to the feminist ideal than individual choice. The feminist ideal includes a world free from patriarchal power structures that oppress women. When a woman participates in the manufacture or consumption of pornography, she supports the oppression of women by feeding that part of society most responsible for her own suffering as a woman: namely, men who treat women not as individuals but as objects of their own pleasure. She perpetuates the stereotypes that harm her and others. She actively furthers the degradation of herself and her sisters.

To draw an analogy: shouldn’t every union member be free to decide for themselves whether or not they join the union, or how much they’re willing to accept as a wage? Shouldn’t they be free as individuals to undercut their fellow employees by working for less? Your choice may harm me indirectly, but in very real ways.

3

Stoid: I would be delighted and flattered if you would read my paper on that very subject. Warning: it isn’t strongly conclusive, definitely a very ambivalent paper; but it does seriously consider the perspective that finds porn harmful to women, and the conclusion, such as it is, tends towards that viewpoint. (I’m not sure I still agree with that perspective, but I’ve drifted into and out of and through it)

4

First show that if something is degrading to women that it’s necessarily bad. What’s the standard? The feminists themselves are fond of describing everything in terms of power struggles, with no absolutes. Every feminist professor I encountered in college with whom I discussed philosophy was a postmodernist, so they wouldn’t call anything universally bad. Patriarchy and certain male behaviours may be bad for women, and they may be good for men. (Putting aside for the time-being Simone deBeauvoir’s arguments for self-interest in equality between the sexes, which IMHO warrants almost an entirely separate thread.)

Implicit in hansel’s argument is that removal of pornography may eliminate those behaviours and power structures which the feminist ideal opposes, or at least that pornography plays a part in perpetuating them. Embedded within this is the popular feminist idea that gender is a cultural construction, that can be deconstructed and altered with the right changes to cultural influences. Unless one presumes the theory of gender construction, one might not necessarily conclude that patriarchy has any relationship whatsoever with pornography or any other cultural influence at all.

5

RexDart:QUOTE]Every feminist professor I encountered in college with whom I discussed philosophy was a postmodernist
[/quote]

I hate that shit.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ahunter/RFvLitCrit/tocandtp.html

6

Wow AHunter, you actually wrote a paper on this! I’ll have to give it a read and get back to you on it. BTW, your personal story about that class you were enrolled in during grad school, that exactly describes the treatment my friend Jay is getting in a Women and the Law class here at the MU Law School.

7

oops, there goes the Victoria Secrets Catalog and the Sunday NY Times Magazine. I think we can condemn child pornography and what looks like child pornography without condemning all pornography.

There goes Baywatch, and most of Hollywood. As for feeling inferior, men feel at least as inferior as women do! If the question is about degrading to women, particularly, this is not much of an argument.

In that case, let’s ban lots of churches, for many foster misconceptions at least as harmful, possibly more so, as pornography. Also, I suspect that anyone you are likely to want to date is smart enough to distinguish between the fantasy world of porn and the real world. If not, they have other problems, and are probably off thinking D&D is real or something.

Evidence that porn contributes to sex crimes? Does a woman have a right not to be affected by a religious man who thinks he should be the boss? Does a man who believes this have the right not to be affected by a woman who believes she should have rights? Your way leads to a slippery slope, to coin a phrase.

Aha. Women should be free by being not free to make employment choices. I see. Some women (such as those who produce and direct porn) honestly believe that it does not degrade women. I know of several women who enjoy porn far more than I do, and they don’t seem a bit degraded.

As for me, I’ll take freedom.

8

Which Pornography? Do you mean Playboy? Because there are hundreds of different types and genres of pornography out there catering to the vary wide array of tastes and fetishes of men and women. Pornography does not have an obsession with busty blondes, perhaps one particular periodical does but you cannot judge the entire thing by one single example.

False expectations in men? How about in women? The men in heterosexual pornography have the sexual stamina of latter day Gods due to expert camera and editing techniques. There are very few men who can perform in the same manner as that which is portrayed.

As for portraying damaging stereotypes, you have to look no further than the media. Televisions, Movies and Magazines. I would state that Cosmo and Vogue et al are far more damaging as far as presenting unattainable ideals is concerned, than pornography ever will be.

9

That Jackass show is degrading to men as are a lot of other thngs men do. If there is anything degrading it is degrading to the subject only not to the general population of women.

10

No no no no no! If we’re going to do Stoid’s homework for her, we have to take a contrary position to hers. She’s not asking for help with her side, she needs devil’s advocates!

I will comment on one thing:

Well, yes, in fact she does, both in theory and practice (as does anyone). If a religious boss treats her employees in a way that is demonstrably religiously biased (e.g., not promoting someone from a different church who deserved it, firing someone because they’re an athiest, etc.), then the employee has several recourses, including a civil law suit and a complaint to the National Labor Relations Board.

11

Oh… I get it…

Can I go now?

Well, to take a perfectly fundamentalist point of view. Lets examine the purpose of pornography. The overwhemling majority of consumers of pornography are men and the assumption that this pornography will be used as an aide to masturbation one can argue that pornography encourages masturbation, which is inherently wrong. Sex is also a private affair between a man and a woman within the sanctity of marriage. Individuals in pornography are usually not married or even in any type of relationship. There is no love involved, no sacred vows. This is immoral and wrong and people shouldn’t commit these acts, never mind watch them being commited. Pornography treats women as objects of lust and desire, not potential wives and mothers.

I now demand a frogurt.

12

Hansel: **But it’s not the right of a woman to decide if a man will treat her in a degrading fashion because he believes pornography to represent a desirable state of affairs. To the extent that pornography consumption shapes attitudes, does any woman have a right, in practice, not to be affected by those attitudes, especially when those attitudes can contribute to sexual discrimination and sex crimes? Having a right in theory is irrelevant if the circumstances don’t support that right. **

No man has the right to treat a woman in a degrading fashion, even if he does believe pornography represents a “desirable state of affairs.” Every woman does have the right in practice to refuse to be treated, and therefore affected by those attitudes. Granted, that doesn’t mean their rights will be honored, however the same argument can be made about the inherent right to walk down the street and not be held up.

Women do have the right to decide that men will not treat them in a sexually discriminatory manner. As you said yourself in a later post:** “then the employee has several recourses, including a civil law suit and a complaint to the National Labor Relations Board.”** That applies to sexual discrimination or harassment as well as religious.

Also, there is no reason to assume that every man who uses porn, whether magazines or video, believes it to represent a real state of affairs. Having watched a number of soft and hard core porns in my life, I can state for a certainty that I never believed that, for example, if I delivered a pizza to a woman she would come to the door in underwear, invite me in, and then decide to have sex with me immediately. It’s simply not real. Granted that a few people may have trouble discerning the difference, but the vast majority, I believe, does not.

13

Actually, hansel, I need both. I’m always open to the brilliant arguments of my fellow dopers, and that’s what I need. I am trying to arm myself with the best arguments and I surely don’t have them all.

So please, argue away.

I will, too, but not this moment.

14

You’re not leaving much maneuvering room for the opposition by stating from the get-go the assumption that porn is between consenting adults. That kind of gets a serious foot in the door to the argument that it’s their own dang business, and something they decided to do purely on their own, with no coercion or whatever bad stuff involved.

Then again, it also leaves the door wide open to say, sure, these people are actors. “This woman isn’t being degraded, but she’s portraying someone who is.” I haven’t seen all that much video or film porn, but what I have seen tends to run the gamut of fantasized sexual experiences, the vast majority of which fall out of the bounds of acceptable behavior as far as anti-porn people tend to be concerned. I.e., sure, it’s not likely that your typical pizza delivery man gets waylaid by the missus, but then again, that type of behavior, which is being portrayed as acceptable, is NOT acceptable in certain circles.

What is the focus of your opposition in this debate going to be? Are they the PTA? Religious group? High-school teachers? Rocket scientists? They could take several different tacks with their arguments, and the points you have made seem to either block them off completely, or leave huge gaps for them to take advanage of, depending on their focus.

15

I’m not sure yet, but probably some “Mothers Against Porn” - I’ll know by the end of the day.

The actual discussion wont’ be nearly this detailed, controlled or formal, believe me. I just know that there will be certain obvious objections offered, and I want to be prepared.

As for the consenting adults bit, that’s because not all porn is the same. I do not believe that child porn is ok, and I don’t know a single person in the adult entertainment industry who does. So it is beside the point entirely to even discuss it, since everybody is on the same page about it.

I’ll be back, you guys are doing great. Thanks for participating.

16

Stoid, you know you have my friendship and that there are many issues on which we don’t see eye to eye. This is only to a certain degree one of them, but I’ll start with the “con” stance, since that’s what you need.

I think there are several key points:

For the overwhelming majority of people, men and women, religious or not, the most appropriate place for sex is in the context of a permanent romantic/marital relationship. I think it’s safe to assume that 99.999999…% of pornography does not portray such a relationship but, if it has any plotline at all, depicts casual sex. There are a lot of people that argue strongly, and I think with some justice, that such pornography takes away from the committed-sexual-relationship’s meaningfulness to its partners. That was in part what I saw Hansel as saying.

Second, there is absolutely no question that some pornographers take unfair advantage, to understate the case, of their performers. For every happy porn star there are probably a dozen down-and-out losers who are only too happy to perform on camera as the pornographer directs for a fee, at the cost of their own dignity and personal privacy. IMHO, that’s a strong case of abuse of the individual. I will grant that most of these people are adults capable of making mature decisions – but a fair amount of their decision-making capacity is taken from them by their economic situation.

Third, there are more than a few “recovering porn addicts” in our society, including an erstwhile member of this board whom I know personally, who honestly do not need the temptation placed before them.

Now, I respect the individual’s right to publish and purchase what he pleases, so I’m not advocating banning it. But I trust you can see that one can argue a moral case against it without necessarily getting into questions of whether it can be legal.

On the other hand, I’m well aware of people who use it as a means of stimulating their flagging sex drives, of people who use fantasy based on porn as a way to enhance their marital relationships, and so on.

And I’ve felt for years that there is a gap on the market: many kids get into porn purely out of curiosity and libido stimulation, because there’s nothing else that clues them in to a subject that they’re intensely curious about. I’d like to see an illustrated book produced by an attractive young married couple talking about and showing their sex life, designed to educate kids on what healthy sex is supposed to be. This would satisfy their curiosity, put paid to some of the childhood myths (“we only did it once, so she can’t get pregnant”), and generally make that transition into adolescence much easier for kids as regards this issue.

17

This could be said about any shitty job, whether it’s running the fry vat at White Castle or scrubbing puke stains out of a hotel-room carpet. People perform a wide range of personally demeaning functions to make a living in our capitalist economy, and the only one that seems to attract any attention is porn. Why is that?

My perspective:

First off, depictions of sexuality are as old as humanity. Consider Venus figures; they can’t just be paperweights, right? Further examples of the ancient fascination with sex can be found from cave walls to carvings on every continent.

Second, not all cultures view sexual subjects with fear and distrust. I note that every single world religion takes a general position on sex (no pun intended), but that these positions run the gamut from loathing to outright celebration. (Sometimes it’s mixed; the Aztec figure Eueucoyotl, for example, represents fun and spontaneity along with sex, but also acts as an unpredictable mischief-maker. That, obviously, is not a coincidence.) Stated simply, sex is a constant for humanity, and no system of morals and/or values is silent on the issue. However, the sheer variety of views implies that they are the product of cultural conditioning, and are not inherent to the subject in any meaningful way.

From this I conclude that sex itself is value-neutral, a physical function upon which layers of opinion and judgement are imposed by humans. This is illustrated by the fact that the more a culture attempts to repress depictions and explorations of sexual subjects, the more pornography becomes an underground force.

In other words, my opinion is that porn can be unhealthy, but it is, paradoxically, the very act of suppressing that makes it so, because it stigmatizes it and creates a penumbra of guilt and secrecy. It’s a vicious tautology: If nobody had a problem with it, there wouldn’t be a problem.

My point, in short, is that we create our own problems when we inappropriately impose a value judgement on a basic biological act. Everything else, including the “exploitation” of women in porn, follows.

18

I have always wondered this- feminists say porn is degrading to women by showing them as sexual objects, what do they say about gay porn. Is it alright because it is womanfree, or is it basically anti-woman bacause anything that pleases a man has to be harmful to women? What about lesbian porn made for women?

19

I meant boss in a relationship or marriage. Totally agree with you about the workplace.

20

I remember reading somewhere that women in porn are well paid, but men in porn are not.

Stoid, the best argument I can come up against it is an oppressive environment one. Just like porn and suggestive pictures and websites are banned in the workplace, porn should be banned for causing an oppressive environment to some women by its very existence and easy availability. I don’t buy this argument, but it seems like one with a little bit of credibility.