Thanks RT! You hit the nail exactly on the head.
Often wrong… NEVER in doubt
A note about Traci Lords:
She used a borrowed birth certificate as proof of her age to get started in the business. Everyone she worked with thought she was in her twenties.
There is some speculation that Traci herself may have been the anonymous individual who leaked the information about her age. Reason: she wasn’t making any money from her earlier films. Before she became a big name in the business, she couldn’t wrangle a piece of the profits. So, she made ONE film after turning 18, (“Traci, I Love You”) held all rights to that film that she could, and leaked the info about her age to the press.
Overnight, her old movies were yanked off the shelves. Demand for the sole available and legal Traci Lords movie was immense, and she made buckets o’ dough.
Exploited teenager, my ass.
I hadn’t heard that Marilyn Chambers had criticized the porn industry of her day, but hearing her name made me think of one of her contemporaries, Linda Lovelace, the star of Deep Throat.
Lovelace wrote (or had written for her, perhaps) a couple of books that attacked the porn industry of her day, and went around speaking out against it. To be fair to her, she went through some horrific times.
But the odd thing is, even by her own account, she’s got no reason to blame the porn industry, or anybody in it, for her personal ordeal. She was the victim of an extremely abusive husband, who (by her account) forced her into performing in Deep Throat. And, also by her account, the people involved with the movie treated her well, and didn’t force her into anything.
As she puts it, though, every time you see that movie, you’re watching her get raped. She, for no apparent reason, blames this on the porn industry, rather than on the abusive husband that she had long escaped by the time she hit the anti-porn circuit. Go figure.
I agree porn itself is not evil. I even have a little collection of my own (I’m a woman). But it can be addictive. My SO is addicted to it. He never hid it from me-- he has a stash of mags and a gazillion videotapes. He visits many porn sites, but get this - his doesn’t know about the history feature, so I check history and can see where he’s been. It only bothers me because it makes me feel inadequate - like, hmmm, I’m not woman enough or something. I told him how I felt - he said the porn has nothing to do with me. Okay - I told him, just don’t indulge when I’m around.
FOR PITA: If the problem you’re having is that he kept this secret, then how about a straightforward, non-argumentative talk: “uh, honey, I noticed you were visiting some porn sites - I never knew you were interested in porn. It bothers me that you never told me about it. Can we talk about it?” Something like that, maybe?
I have run into some of the so-called teen sites. They remind me of the entrepreneur in “Catch 22” who was alway introducing his buddies to whores. He would say “This is Inga who a 12 year old hooker. She is 48.” or something to that effect.
If there are folks out there in the illegal porn trade, I strongly doubt they are going to advertise.
Ok… late yesterday afternoon Pita said:
And I don’t think anyone decided to follow up on that question. (Forgive me if I missed someone’s response to this.)
Pita: I don’t think we are responsible for the actions of another. You did not force him into going to look at the sites. If the reason he went there was because you have been unavailable, he should have said something to you. If there are other reasons he went there, he could have (and maybe should have) said something to you. Now that you know… I have to agree with the person/people who said go and ask him about it in the most non-confrontational way you can.
Beth
When I get spam or come across an ad that claims to have underage models, I’ll often check it out. Twice now I’ve found sites that have child porn. Like CHILD porn. I don’t remember one of them but the other one had pictures of a man having anal sex with a boy who looked to be about nine. It made me feel ill.
Why do I go? Simple. I report it when I find it. http://www.customs.gov/enforcem/enforcem.htm http://www.pedowatch.org/leinfo/
in both instances I checked back a couple of days later and the sites were gone. Something interesting, the site with the man and the boy was in Japan. The site was all in Japanese and the server was on a japanese domain. I think the US gov has a lot of influence with other governments, and no doubt most other governments think kiddie porn is as sick as we do in the US. So… if you find it, report it, even if it isn’t in the US.
–
Teeming Millions: http://fathom.org/teemingmillions
“Meat flaps, yellow!” - DrainBead, naked co-ed Twister chat
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
G’morning-
Just a quick update- Syco, Beth et. al: I took your advice and did bring up the topic. It went very well.
Someone addressed my question of government regulated porn earlier. Yes, that is exactly what I meant. It may make the industry safer for its participants.
Morning everyone…sorry it took me a while to get back to this…blizzard and all.
I couldn’t find many actual sites that had real hard info about porn actors either for or against the industry. You can imagine what comes up when you type in “Porn Stars + Autobiography” into a search engine. But I did find a few FAQ pages. Since it had both pro and con facts, I’m going to at least take it at face value.
First, underage porn stars…beside Traci Lords, who was mentioned above, there are at least 2 others that I found without looking hard. Alexandria Quinn was underage when she started making adult movies, but continues to make them now that she is of legal age. Also, Lydia Chanel, made 15 movies in France before she turned 18…and also continues to make them now…although I’m not sure what the age of consent is there.
Now what about Porn stars speaking for/against the industry?..Well, both Nina Hartley, and Ashley Gere are avid and outspoken supporters of the adult film industry, while both Holly Ryder and Stacey Danovan both speak out against it. It’s hard to tell exactly who to believe…as with my previous analogy, just because one person has a bad experience with something, doesn’t make that thing bad, and certainly not evil.
Scylla –
I see your point…but perhaps I still have a hard time believing it. I understand what you’re saying…that 90% or the porn that people watch/buy is the mainstream stuff, top of the line so to speak. But that what is bought is only 10% of what’s available (please correct if I mis-understood) That leads me to wonder what economic reason there would be for someone to be making these thousand and thousands of tapes that only 10% of people are watching?..True, people don’t always need money to take advantage of innocents, but I can’t believe that they do it all for pennies. As to your argument that most 18 year olds don’t have enough life experience to get away from these people, or to recognize when they are being lied to or manipulated. Well, at what point to we say that a human is responsible for themselves?..When are they competent to make decisions (good and bad) about their lives?..We all make mistakes…we all do things we regret…some people screw their lives up when young, but manage to get through it and live a happy, successful, and fulfilling life. You say that some of these girls are lured in and get hooked on drugs…well aren’t there enough anti-drug campaigns out there that they should at least know that drugs are bad?..While I don’t think that anyone should be abused or taken advantage of because of a bad decision, the fact remains that at some point, they made a choice …and they also must learn how to deal with the results of that choice.
I agree with you in spirit…I wish that nobody ever had to suffer because of bad choices they make in their life. That there weren’t people out there that take advantage of young people that are naive. However, I also think that, as unfortunate as it is, this is part of our lives and society. There will always be predators that seek to harm those that are innocent, or weak. And while there probably is abuse, and illegal porn out there, I do not believe that you can say that the 90% that people watch is comparable to the 10% that is sought by those with serious sick cravings. Do you understand my point?..
PITA–
About the government regulations or porn. That is difficult to answer…I agree partially that I would love it if there was someone that could monitor the conditions, the care of the actors, and to make sure that the illegal stuff is stopped. However, I am uncomfortable with the Gov. being involved in things like this…because of the stigma surrounding sex in our day and age, I am afraid that it would tend to cater to what the more “restrained” people want. For instance, do you know that you can no longer buy pornography on military bases?..Because the Government doesn’t want to be seen as encouraging it. If it’s one thing the Government is good at, it’s making regulations…I’m sure they could pass so many of them that they could control what was made…just by enforcing certain regs for what was thought to be “inappropriate” and relaxing those regs for more “acceptable” films. This is a stretch of the imagination, but not that great of a one.
I don’t know that there is an easy answer…in order to have some of the freedoms that we in the US hold dearly, we also have to give up some of the security that comes with having someone watching over us. Just as when you become an adult, it’s nice to do whatever you want without having your parents to answer to, you’re also responsible for your actions, and any trouble you get into, is your to get out of.
Sorry for the long-winded post…and I’m not sure if I was able to convey my concerns, or points…the site that I got that FAQ from is:
www.uwo.ca/its/news/FAQ/alt-sex/movies/
Atreal:
I understand your point, and agree wholeheartedly. You can’t legislate morality.
The question was Is Porn Evil. I said no, but some of the people who made it were.
I don’t have an answer, but it bothers me when people just assume everythings AOK.
The other 90% as we refer to it is made because it is very cheap to do so, and it can be sold for a profit.
Someof the people who make Big Macs are evil, I’m sure. Heck, vegitarians would say ALL of 'em are!
Yer pal,
Satan
Yes, Satan, but they are evil on a whole different level from the french fry guy. Your comparing a pickpocket to Hitler.
Really shitty analogy. That’s all I can say, and it’s not even wirth that. Do your fucking homework on the difference between what Hitler did and the worst porno could do even in theory and get back to me.
Yer pal,
Satan
jab1 wrote:
“Porn Director Fights Ratings Board for Single-X Rating” 
: http://www.theonion.com/onion3219/porndirector.html
Easy there, Brian.
It was a pretty awful analogy, Scylla. How do you know Bob the Phillips 66 cashier is any more or less evil than a porn film director? Satan didn’t specify what was evil about the Big Mac guy.
Comparing porn to genocide is a stretch . . . and could be very offensive to those of us of Jewish heritage. I’d suggest a retraction. I’m sure you didn’t mean any insult.
-andros-
I’m sorry to offend you Satan. It’s not my intention. Perhaps you misread what I said.
One more time I will say that Porno does not offend me, I don’t think it’s evil, etcetera, etcetera.
All that I’ve been stating througout this entire thread Is that some Pornographers are evil.
If you go back and look at the thread you will see what kind of scumbag I am talking about. I am not indicting the whole business, nor am I indicting everybody who works in it. I have been pretty specific.
I thought your comparison of these people. to Mcdonalds workers was pretty trite, and decided to come back with something strong.
A child pornographer, or one that runs a deliberate con with drugs or other coercian is evil because he/she destroys lives, and probably does not see the young girls he victimizes as quite human. I think the comparison to Hitler on that basis is fair. The main difference in evil between the two is quantity of people harmed/destroyed, not quality.
Do me the courtesy of going back and reading my previous posts, before you decide if it’s an unfair analogy.
Sorry for having offended you.
Often wrong… NEVER in doubt
scalia:
Fine, all I’m saying is that the issue in this thread is whether porn is evil. Frankly, what you’re saying is not helping the discussion at all since it is obvious that some people in this industry are bad, because the same could be said for any industry.
I was not “offended,” I simply couldn’t believe the inaccuracy of an anaolgy that was so off-base. It takes a lot to offend me…
Yer pal,
Satan
Let’s see,
Two people I like and respect are taking the effort to tell me that I’ve made a poor and potentially offensive analogy.
As Andros says, Satan did not mention what made the Mcdonald’s guy evil, only that their were evil people in all businesses, which is a valid point.
Obviously this is an issue that I feel strongly about. As such I should be twice as careful not to go off half-cocked, and get on a soap-box.
This seems to be my day for saying something stupid after misinterpreting a previous post. The Hitler analogy probably is ill-considered in light of hindsight. I hope that my making it didn’t detract from the point I was trying to get across. Crap. I would have hoped I’d learned my lesson about this kind of thing. Sorry.
Often wrong… NEVER in doubt
C’mon people, think. The analogy was pickpocket/ Hitler. Obviously this is an example of 2 extremes of evil. pickpocket = little tiny evil and, I think we’d all agree, Hitler= great big monsterous evil. So what Scylla was saying is that while many different people can be evil, an evil Big Mac maker ( what, he spits on the bun? ) is doing little evil while someone who hooks innocent kids on drugs and exploits them in sex movies is doing big evil. NOT ( as I read it,) That EITHER of these people is doing things as evil as Hitler. I read the post as a joke, saying that while there might be an evil Big Mac maker, it was nothing compaired to an evil french fry guy, but I can see how that might not have been the intent.
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Weirddave:
Thanks for the defense. My intent WAS to compare big evil to little evil as a response to what I thought was a trite remark over a serious issue.
Clearly, other interpretations were possible. I didn’t make my point well, or choose my analogy carefully. Hence, my apology.