Is Public Education Broken?

Great Debates
41

Then the theory would say that the GOP scheme is doomed to failure. Vouchers will work only if the amt of the voucher IS enough to maintain a school funded solely or almost solely by vouchers. If the vouchers don’t provide enough money for this, then the schools won’t be founded. Most parents will have no place to take the vouchers.

If the vouchers are too small, the only parents who will use them will be the ones who already have their kids in pvt or parochial schools. It will be a handout to those parents, and will help no one else. Those parents would love such a scheme.

42

I agree with ElJeffe that reducing class size alone is not the answer. Far better, IMHO, to attract better, fewer, teachers through higher salaries and deal with larger classes than to simply reduce class size across the board.

Secondly, I think we spend far too much money on the kids at the bottom of the barrel, who, as monica points out are disruptive and don’t want to be in class anyway. I would consider allowing kids to drop out of school after 8th grade, and I think the high schools should have far more freedom to expel those who cause problems. I am not saying that kids who are having trouble in school, but who are making an effort to do their best, should be cut loose, but that those kids who detract from the learning of others should be kicked out.

43

Sorry, I missed this on preview. What about those parents who would like to send their kids to private schools, but can only afford to spend say $1000 of their own money on it? The voucher + their own contribution would allow them the freedom to pursue the private education where they can not do so today.

44

And what about the parents who don’t even have $1000? How does this help the scads of truly impoverished families?

45

Are schools like roads? In other words, should we all fund public schools, even if we’re not using them, as we all fund roads even if we’re not drivers?

This is not a matter that is subject to proof one way or the other - it depends on what you think the role of government in education should be.

There are those that point to condom distribution and the teaching that homosexuality is just as valid a choice as any other, and related education initiatives as proof that public education is politicized, and not in the way they wish it were. This is sufficient reason, they say, that public schools should lose some funding to private alternatives.

My plan at the moment is to send Bricker Jr to private school.

But I think schools are like roads. I recognize the need to fund public school, and the fact that my choice amounts to a privilege for which it’s appropriate that I pay extra. If I disagree with the specific educational methods or subject matter taught in public schools, I have the right to organize and fight to change it… or to opt out of sending my child.

But just as I can’t refuse to pay taxes for police and hire my own force, neither can I expect my share of taxes for public schooling to be redirected to a choice that benefits only me.

  • Rick
46

One problem with having public schools is that we have neverending battles over curriculum. We have many interest groups that want to see to it that their viewpoint is taught in the schools. It’s often not so much concern re what their own kids will be exposed to as a desire to see to it that everyone’s kids are taught what they want them to be taught. Or not taught anything that they find objectionable. Schoolchildren are seen as empty minds just waiting to be filled with each group’s concept of “the right ideas”. I don’t see any solution; as long as we have public schools, we’ll have these battles.

And if we ended public education, we’d probably still have them. In the absence of public schools, we’d still have govt officials directing the pvt schools as to what they were required to teach and what they were forbidden to teach, on pain of not being accredited. We’d have bitter fights over what requirements govt officials would set for the pvt school curriculums. This would matter, as parents, I’m guessing, would not be allowed to spend their vouchers anyplace but govt-accredited schools. And if vouchers didn’t exist, we’d probably find ourselves with a law that no school was permitted to operate unless it was accredited by the govt.

47

Good lord. I don’t know about the truly impoverished, I suppose they are left where they are. My point was that to say that vouchers will only help those who can already afford private schools ignores the potentially substantial number of people on the line between being able to afford or not afford private schools who would benefit from the voucher.

48

I have read that when funding to schools decreases administrator positions never get pay cuts or position cuts. They do get raises when funding increases and always get their COLA raises, so over time the adinistrator salaries are disproportionately large in comparision to teachers salaries. I have seen this anecdotally, but am looking for cites.

I vote to raise taxes to fund schools every chance I get, even though I did not really ever expect to have kids of my own. I’d like all the neighborhood kids to be able to read welll, even the ones that aren’t Catholic.

We need to better fund schools. We also need to take a close look at what has been allowed to happen to academics. High Schoolers I talk to online are being assigned condensed versions of books. I have yet to find a average type young adult that understands that buy one get one at half off is not a 50% sale. We have kids studying for standardized tests that are supposed to measure their general academic standing, rather than studying to improve their general academic standing. We can fix this. It will take money and more people getting involved. We also need to fire idiot teachers that can’t grade papers without their little round slide rule. A freind of mine encountered one of those last year teaching math. Very sad.

49

I have read that when funding to schools decreases administrator positions never get pay cuts or position cuts. They do get raises when funding increases and always get their COLA raises, so over time the adinistrator salaries are disproportionately large in comparision to teachers salaries. I have seen this anecdotally, but am looking for cites.

I vote to raise taxes to fund schools every chance I get, even though I did not really ever expect to have kids of my own. I’d like all the neighborhood kids to be able to read welll, even the ones that aren’t Catholic.

We need to better fund schools. We also need to take a close look at what has been allowed to happen to academics. High Schoolers I talk to online are being assigned condensed versions of books. I have yet to find a average type young adult that understands that buy one get one at half off is not a 50% sale. We have kids studying for standardized tests that are supposed to measure their general academic standing, rather than studying to improve their general academic standing. We can fix this. It will take money and more people getting involved. We also need to fire idiot teachers that can’t grade papers without their little round slide rule. A freind of mine encountered one of those last year teaching math. Very sad.

50

Lee Why is more money the answer? Why not demand that the schools do more with what they get?

I agree about kicking out the bad teachers, IMHO tenure has no place outside of the university setting. Why does a 3rd grade math teacher need tenure? What academic freedom is being protected there?

51

So you think it’s ok to tax everybody to help a few? How about families who can afford private schools without help? Should they be eligible to receive my tax money or should there be means testing? Is it ok with you for impoverished children to be left where they are? Do they not have a right to the same education as middle and upper class kids? You said that you always vote to increase funding for public schools, so you must believe that they can be reformed. Wouldn’t the money proposed for vouchers be better spent on schools that help all kids?

I agree with all this, but it’s difficult to fire bad teachers when good ones are not exactly beating down the doors. We need to create more incentives for quality teachers to stay in the field. Right now you can make more money managing a Wendys than you can as an inner city school teacher.

52

Of course it is ok to tax everybody to help a few. Look at public education now, where the childless are taxed to pay for the education of other people’s children. How about roads? We use the taxes of those who don’t own cars to maintain the roads for those that do. How about welfare? Another place where everone’s taxes go to support a few. Do I need to go on?

As for the families that can afford the private education, what of it? There are famililes now that can afford private education, but continue to use the public system. Should we kick them out?

It is unfortunate that the impoverished do not get all the help they deserve, but it does not follow that we should do nothing to help those that we can. Which is better, everyone getting a poor education, or some people getting a better education and some people getting a poor one.

I’ll give you a chance to retract this, since you are confusing me with someone else. I never said I always vote to increase funding for public schools, and in fact I believe I have said that I am not conviced that more money per se is the answer to the education problem.

53

My comments were directed at Lee, Rhum, not at you, specifically this quote

Did you you even bother to read the quotes I was responding to?

54

Because books cost money and many schools do not have decent text books, and cannot afford to replace text books when they need to.
Because although the administrator’s pay has not lagged, the teacher’s pay has.
Because it is harder to teach 40 or 30 kids well in a class than it is 20 or 25.
Because teachers are too often asked to pay for supplies out of pocket that the schools really should provide. Because many school libraries are in shambles, and you can’t teach children to love reading when there are no good books where they can get to them to read.
Because secondary programs like music, foreign languages, and art have been cut in many places and we need them to inspire children and prepare them for college and for life.
Because temporary cuts from 2 recessions ago were not lifted in good times and now some schools have been asked to make more cuts.
Because property tax freezes mean that we are not asking schools to make do with what they have but are being asked to make do with less money each year.

P.S. And because I am tired of children and their parents trying to sell me grotty stuff to raise money for programs I am quite willing to pay taxes for.

55

As Rhum Runner pointed out, “tax everybody” to help a few is precisely what schools do now. My taxes go to pay for public schools, even though I have no school-age children – and, as I said above, when Bricker Jr gets to be school age, I intend to enroll him in private school. One salutory effect of my son’s future private schooling will be, I hope, a better academic experience than than his compatriots in public school.

As should be clear from that prior post, I do think we should adequately fund public schools. This comes not so much from my belief that impoverished children have any particular “right” to an education, as from the sense that it’s a matter of sound public policy. It’s difficult to imagine many ways in which people can contribute to 21st century US society if they don’t have at least a basic education.

So I’d say no to the “Do they have a right?” question. You have a right to the education which you, or your family, can afford. But we as a society have a strong interest in providing free education, not as a matter of right, but as an investment in the future.

  • Rick
56

Diogenes the Cynic, part of the problem begins with education programs in college. The education programs seem to concentrate and reward the typical infighting, backbiting, and favoritism all too prevalent in higher education programs. They emphasize faddish teaching methods and encourage strict adherence to specific methods and often discourage an approach more tailored to the students being taught. They also seem to forget to make sure the teachers have any actual knowledge of what they are teaching; in fact some of the brighter of the education majors that I worked with in college were angry that they were discouraged from taking classes in math other than math education classes. They were sick of the dumbed down short on theory pap that was taught as math for education. The more brain dead of the education majors understood that knowing the theory would only lead them to confuse the student with actual knowledge rather than approved regurgitations. Very sad.

Also it has been made difficult for those without undergraduate degrees in education to get into teaching. Those who demonstrate by substitute teaching that they are good at teaching and want to do more are not encouraged to do so. There seems to be a lack of programs that would help those that find out after graduation that they want to teach. Those that exist can be very difficult to get into. It is as if we are discouraging anyone outside the education tract from being involved in education at all.

57

One would think that, prior to adopting a solution, one must first clearly identify a problem.

I may have missed some, but it appears that the only problems that have been identified in this thread are low teacher pay, low funding, and large classroom size. Well, ElJeffe also identified “lack of competition” but I don’t really see it. I don’t think lack of competition is ever a problem in and of itself. It certainly might lead to real problems (in the corporate world, lack of innovation, price gouging, and other monopolistic problems) but merely identifying something as a monopoly is not enough to identify the associated problems.

Anyway, I would add to the list of problems: An embarrassingly short school year. If the goal is education, summer vacation is a stupid, anachronistic practice that really needs to end.

As to a solution (for pay, funding, class size and short school year) I think two things are needed: funnel bucket loads of money into the school system, and bust up all teacher unions.

As a philosophical matter, no arm of government should have a union. Unions are useful when profit-driven management is in a situation where they are financially rewarded if they exploit workers. There is simply no analogue in government. If a teacher makes $43,250 a year (US average), teaches 5 classes during the day (5 hours), and needs to spend 3 hours a day on average preparing/grading/etc., the teacher would be making an equivalent of $62,472 a year. Keep in mind the US average income is $29,469 a year.

So, what’s the problem? I believe its Teacher’s unions who want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a good professional salary, but they also want to have a three-month vacation every year. They also don’t want to be paid according to merit or accomplishment. If they pay their union dues, they should collect a salary. They fight for teacher salary above facility repair, updated textbooks, and everything else. Its just wrong.

Now, I know all the pro-teachers unions will jump out of the woodwork to flame me and come out with loads of anecdotal evidence to say that their union is always fighting for new materials, blah, blah.

How can a government efficiently and appropriately allocate money to a school system when only one portion of that system is represented by a load and vocal Union who says to hell with everything else, give us ours.

Forget vouchers, the infrastructure is already in place and shouldn’t be wasted. Criminalize all teacher unions, increase funding by 50%, and make the school year an actual yearlong.

Within a decade our school system would go from an embarrassment to one of the best in the world.

58

I agree with you lee. And I have had experience with idiotic teaching programs instituted by arrogant, ivory tower pinheads who have never spent a day in a classroom. I definitely agree that teachers should be given more autonomy, but I also think that they should be tested regularly. a teacher should not have to look in the book when a student asks a question.

Let me rephrase this. should we tax the underclasses to help the upperclasses?

I totally disagree here. I think all children are entitled to an equal quality of education. (actually, I think this should extend into higher education. I would support free, state funded public colleges, and I would make rich people pay for them)

59

lee – I’m an education program, and I don’t find any of the above to be true. Granted, the program I am in is rated one of the best in the country. But I also wonder if “faddish,” “dumbed down” and “pap” are informed and well-formed judgments.

60

What is the rationale for teachers’ unions fighting against merit pay?