Some people are just bad at planning ahead, through no choice or fault of their own.
-FrL-
You’re right, seriously. The problem is that honestly didn’t occur to me. Maybe it was a bad example on my part due to poor forethought. 
This may sound strange coming from me after all of this discussion, but I’m one of most routined people I know. One of the guys at work who has kids and works two jobs among many many other crazy things in his life seems amazed at what I get accomplished (likewise, I don’t feel like my life compares to the complexity of his). Before I had a routine, I was 1000 times worse… I could plan a single thing for an entire day and still be horribly late, or not even show at all. The difference is, my routines don’t work the same way yours probably do. It’s not “get out of bed, 2 minutes, take a shower, 10 minutes, get dressed, 5 minutes, etc.”… its more of a “get out of bed, take a shower, get dressed… all of that takes about 45 minutes”. Its not “get to work at 9:00, work 'til 5:00, get to school by 5:30, etc.” … its more of a “wake up, go to work, go to school, go to the gym…” It’s abstract, and I really have no idea how to explain it any better than that even knowing that the way I’m describing it doesn’t look much different.
I just plain can’t seem to operate on a rigidly timed, activity by activity, schedule, simply because I don’t account for those small things and thus my estimates are more often than not incorrect. I have no idea how anyone, especially so many people, can do it. I’ve tried day planners, I’ve tried setting up alerts in my e-mail, I’ve tried setting alarms… all it does is stress me out (oh, crap, I’m running late!), and it doesn’t seem to make a bit of difference to my punctuality one way or the other.
Maybe that is part of my problem. Maybe I try to do too much in the morning. For instance, I can’t stand to leave the house without a shower; I just don’t feel right, even if I’d showered just before bed. I don’t lay out clothes at night, but I never spend more than a minute or two to pick out clothes; I pretty much grab the first shirt and pants unless they absolutely look horrible together (eg, dress shirt with jeans)… though even then, I sometimes don’t care. But it’s not getting to work that’s the problem, I have the same problem getting everywhere… hell, I was more than 2 hours late leaving WORK today (good thing I told the gf I wouldn’t have time to see her until tomorrow 
).
I’m really honestly trying, and was actually doing quite well getting to work and school and everything on time for about about a year or so (over a year ago), and then I decided I could cram more stuff in my schedule (i.e., more coursework and a girlfriend). The thing is, I’m not oblivious to the passing of time… it’s obliviousness to how long things will take ahead of time. lowbrass’s boss in post 56 is exactly the type of obliviousness to which I’m referring. How do I know how much early to aim? Like i said earlier, if it’s something I do daily, I generally don’t need to because if I’m late, which is less often in these cases, it’s not by much. But what about the cases that aren’t every day occurences? 30 minutes is sometimes enough, sometimes its not anywhere close to enough. And often when I try to allow that extra time, I get distracted playing my keyboard or whatever.
Another good example would be a time when I was supposed to meet up with the gf on Saturday. My only plans for the day were to do some cleaning, work out, do some work on a group project, and meet up with her at like 6:00… a perfectly reasonable time for what I had planned for the day. You know what I forgot to account for? Basic human needs like say, breakfast and lunch, and other “obvious” things like packing up my laptop for the classwork and basic items to spend the night at her house. All that time adds up to about an hour and I was late meeting up with her by an hour. Do you ever just plain forget to account for things like that?
You’re absolutely right. I know it’s not something that is completely beyond my ability to learn, but I also know it’s not something that is as easy for me to do as it is for others. Considering my many personality quirks (I certainly don’t have any personality flaws ), I try hard not to hold things against others that seem as bizarre to me, like a few I’ve mentioned earlier, as a lack of punctuality or my extermism does to so many others. At this point, it does cost me some frustration, but it seems most people have generally found they can tollerate my relationship with time as a quirk that goes along with the rest of me. If people can’t tollerate it, it’s no skin off my back either. For instance, the people at my job don’t seem to care if I work a 6-4 shift one day, and a 9-7 the next, or one 6 hour day and then a 10 hour day later. Of course, I like to believe it’s because they know when I am there I’m very productive and my knowledge is indispensible… or maybe it’s just because they don’t really notice…
Of course, my hope in getting a PhD is to obtain a research position, which, while it won’t free me completely of a burden of time, will allow me to be compensated with a closer correlation to how much work I do, and not just how long I’m sitting at my desk. I think I might actually be on time when I get a Nobel Prize… at least I’d like to believe I would have this stomped by then.
Likewise 
So whose choice or fault is it if I consistently fail to plan my own actions?
What I meant by “bad at planning” wasn’t “tending not to plan” but rather “planning badly.”
-FrL-
Blaster, I hope you don’t think I’m picking on you, but this is really interesting to me, especially since this is a problem my boss has and one that I’ve had myself to varying degrees at different times in my life. So again, I hope you don’t take any of this as criticism.
But that’s my point - you CAN do it if you really want to. What you’re saying is that it’s too inconvenient for you. Granted, it sounds like it takes much more effort for you, but you can do it. And really, being on time isn’t easy for anyone. Perhaps not as difficult as it is for you, but it is difficult. I think people who are punctual have simply developed the behavior patterns that allow them to accomplish it.
This has been addressed by someone else, so at the risk of being repetitive, I actually don’t think it’s extreme to be very early. I know many people who make a habit of being extremely early to everything. In addition to my part-time office job I mentioned earlier, I work as a free-lance musician, and I knew a guy who would arrive at an out-of-town gig as much as 3 hours early. He would rather spend the day there than suffer the stress of worrying about being on time. As for me, I started my career being late to a lot of gigs. I soon figured out that I wasn’t going to have a career for long, because that simply is not allowed in this business. It was imperative for me to learn to be on time. I did it because I had to; the motivation to be on time was finally stronger than the motivation to continue whatever leisure activity I was doing before leaving for work. So what I do is simply plan on being 45 minutes early. I usually eat dinner when I get to my destination. If there’s really really horrible traffic, I might have to skip dinner to get there on time, so I will. That’s pretty extreme, but sometimes it’s necessary. But since I left that time cushion, the worst that can happen is that I’ll be right on time. Most of the time, when traffic is normal, I’m ridiculously early.
Well I have to agree with Doreen on this. What you’re really doing is making a choice that you value your own time more than you value being punctual. It wasn’t that you couldn’t get there on time, it’s that you didn’t want to risk being early. But actually, in my opinion, that’s exactly what punctual people do. They don’t have magical powers that allow them to arrive everywhere right on the dot, they just risk being early, all the time. And sometimes they are early, and they just figure it’s better to be early than late.
Again, my boss does the same thing as you. He rationalizes in his mind that it’s more important to stay and do what he’s doing and risk missing his deadline, even though that’s illogical. The consequences of completely missing the deadline are much more severe than the consequences of missing a couple of typos because he didn’t spend that last 15 minutes proofreading.
What do you think? Do you agree?
I don’t even think that’s enough. That’s still only 5 minutes cushion.
This is fascinating to me. I’m starting to wonder if you are my boss. Because I have no doubt that the next time he has to file a paper in that same court, it will still be one hour in his mind. It doesn’t matter how many deadlines he misses or how many angry clients he has to apologize to, he simply will not change his behavior. It would seem that such things require behavior modification, that reasoning is not sufficient.
I sometimes can’t remember what I’m doing tomorrow. I have to keep a datebook, and I have to look at it every day - perhaps several times per day. If I’m asked whether I’m available Thursday, I say, “let me check my book”. If I have a phone message on my machine and have to call the person back the next day, I place a post-it note on my front door so that I cannot leave the house without being reminded that I have to make the phone call. If I have materials I must bring to work, I place them right in front of the door the evening before.
Even doing all that, I’m still much less organized than a lot of people.
Often, it’s not that organized people possess inherently better memories, it’s just that they have learned some skills for dealing with the problem. We use external means to force ourselves to remember.
I think this is very important. I am still learning many of these things. When growing up, I was not encouraged to develop habits that would remind me of the things I needed to do. I’m kind of bumbling around as a grown up, working on the right ballance of functional enough, yet simple enough I can follow it consistantly. I think I do okay, most days.
I did have a boss once who felt to do lists, post-its, calendar notes, reminders, etc, were unprofessional and the sign of a weak mind. I was not allowed to have them. Man, did I fail spectacularly at that job.
Btw, I’m glad you (and others) think arranging to be very early in common. I thought I was alone that I had to do this. I feel less like a freak now. Though, bizarely enough, I got bitched at in the other thread for supposedly exagerating because I claimed to need an extra half-hour. I can’t win.
There, you’ve answered the OP’s questions. All the rationalization and excuses aside, you’ve decided that punctuality is just not as important to you as some other things. Whether or not your personality makes punctuality more difficult, it is certainly something you could decide to achieve. But you consider that an unreasonable effort.
Punctuality is a choice. (caveat that there is a very small minority of people out there with personality disorders, attention deficits, etc).
I work in sales in a country that’s pretty lax about being on time and traffic can be unpredictably horrendous. It’s really rare that I’m late. Sheesh, I go early and leave a “reasonable” margin barring the sky is falling to get to a client site on time. It helps that I use a phone/pda/smart device and can be on line 24/7. My to do list goes into one place on my phone, and it synchs with my PC. I’ve got a calendar and to do system. I’ve got waaaaaaay to many deadlines to not be organized.
I routinely have to be on group concalls at 5:00 am and in the evening. I work in a global group for a global company. I am a real bastard with organizers that are late when I’m getting up a 5:00 am to fix their problem.
Yep, being late is mighty personal.
I also make the distinction for when a meeting or get together is 8:00 ish versus 8:00. I ask to just to make sure. Or we meet somewhere where it’s no big deal if someone is 90 minutes lates. Let’s meet at the Long Bar after work and go to dinner at 8:30. Most people get of work sometime between 6 and 7, and with traffic and whatever, well, you know you’ll be having a beer with them sometime from 6 to 8:30, and then going out to dinner. It’s no big deal because both parties know what the score is. Especially in a school/work situation, it’s on time.
I’ve always been early or punctual. I learned that probably from my father. It was certainly reinforced when I worked in investment banking for 8 years. Don’t matter squat unless you get the information you need before the market opens, and your trade gets done before the closing bell. it’s just like habitually late people seem to make their flights a helluva lot more often than being to work on time.
Neither was I. I’ve simply made it a priority in my life.
I think everyone is still learning, especially since we’re all aging and our lives always getting more hectic. It used to be that I could remember what I’d bought at the grocery store last week, so that I wouldn’t buy things I don’t need. But after my sister noticed I had five, practically brand-new cartons of vanilla ice cream in the freezer, I realized I need to get better organized. Now I know I need to go through my cabinets and make a list of needed items before I head to the store. No one taught me this. It’s just a habit I’ve picked up. I think the only thing that separates people who are “put together” from those who are not is that the former knows how to compensate for the deficits that everyone has. I think it is quite rare for someone to be punctual without having to try.
I’m as guilty of this as much as you are, but I’m going to say the following anyway: You need to stop caring so much about how you compare to other people. As long as you’re functioning and doing what you’re supposed to be doing (and when), why should anyone care about your coping strategies? Fuck them!
I admit I did not thoroughly study each of these cites, but my review of the first 3 indicates that many folk believe that chronic lateness is one of a cluster of behaviors frequently exhibited by persons with ADD/ADHD.
What I did not see, however, is anything stating the percentage of persons who are chronically late who have ADD/ADHD. Perhaps O and MB have ADD/ADHD. But those 2 case studies tell me nothing about the incidence of ADD/ADHD in the chronically tardy.
The main thing that bugged me about O and MB’s posts was their claim of helplessness to explain/deal with their behavior. O says she “can’t” hang up her keys. MB says he “can’t” explain why a 25 minute task sometimes takes him an hour.
IMO&E, folks can do a whole heck of a lot - even things more impressive than placing their keys in a designated spot or getting out the door in the morning - if they want to.
Not that small. 4%. Four out of every hundred people you know. Got a hundred people in your office? Imagine four having ADD. It may not be the case in your particular office but that’s what four per cent means. So it’s not that rare at all.
Actually, work and school are that important.
I work very hard at punctuality. I set my alarm, and have a clock near me at all times in the morning as I get ready for work. I know I need to be in the shower at a specific time. I have a cd burned to listen to in the shower. When the CD is on a specific song, I know I HAVE to get finished. I have my clothes for work as error proof as possible. I actually DO own 7 identical pair of black work pants, and 7 assorted colors of polo shirts, and 7 identicalsets of underthings. I never have to think about what i am going to wear. I usually take prepackaged leftovers for lunch, and all I have to do is grab the package out of the fridge and put it into a bag. mrAru likes the ramen cup soup things and keeps a case of tehm in his work car so he never has to worry about what is for lunch.
Yes, we do a minute by minute schedule to get out of the house. We have 3 people and 1 bathroom so scheuling in the morning is crucial.
All it takes to remain punctual is to keep an eye on your watch, and if needed set your watch alarm to remind you you have something to do/somewhere to go NOW.
What an ultimate motherfucker! :mad:
Reminds me of the math teacher my wife had as a kid who wouldn’t
allow his students to take notes. :mad: :mad:
-FrL-
I’m going to chime in agreeing that I always arrange to be somewhat early. I would rather wait than be late. I always have a book in the car, so I always have something to do. Now that I have kids, I try to leave the house quite early, because they are slow. As a result, I’m always at least a few minutes early for work, even though I often take the kids out to a friend who lives on a farm that is miles out of town and on the other side of a train track first.
If I plan to be somewhere exactly on time, then I’ll probably be a little late, so I plan to be there quite early.
Here’s a funny example: my dad recently had to go pick up my mom at the airport, 90 miles away. The plane was going to be late due to fog in Denver. He had already planned to be about 2 hours early, so he left about an hour later and was 3 hours early. My dad is perfectly happy to sit around an airport for 3 hours until 2am in order not to have to worry about being late. He just takes a nap or reads.
See, where I come from that’s called “seriously rude”. I have an hour for lunch, you show up 15 minutes late (meaning a quarter of my time) and I’m supposed to be grateful that you’ve left me alone at a restaurant to “explore the self”? Yeah, thanks for that. It’s nice, in a way, that friendships between the rude and the not rude tend to be self-un-selecting.
Here’s a question:
If people are saying “You should be on time, even if it means being willing to wait a little while by being early,” then have they thereby lost the right to complain “You shouldn’t be late, because I am not willing to wait a little while for you to get here?”
-FrL-
What about that quarter of your time? Are you implying the other has somehow stolen it away? Clearly false: You experienced that 15 minutes. It was yours to do with as you wished. No one took it from you.
I think there’s a valid point you’re trying to make, but couching it in terms of “my time” and “your time” and so on makes things… unclear…
-FrL-
This is sooo true. And sometimes it benefits the waitee: If it weren’t that I was waiting for then boyfriend to show up late YET AGAIN, I wouldn’t have fallen into a conversation with the nice man sitting alone at the next table. Who was going to spend the evening at his friends photography showing… which started sounding a heck of a lot more interesting than continuing to wait for a guy who claimed to love me but couldn’t manage to ever meet up with me even approximately on time.
Mr. Guy at the Next Table and I were marriage six months later, and it’s still going strong. And HE gets to places on time.