Malkavia – my incredulity was not that some women might fall for a romantic date and a little flattery, but your statement that a good majority of the female population would so fall. 60%? 70%? 80%? Yikes.
Astro,
A mildly retarded woman could form an attachment to others. This places her in a disadvantage because of her ability to differenciate between a (real) relationship which includes mutual respect, and a relationship that is one-sided and the other person is only using her as a semen dispenser.
What does everyone think about sterilization for retarded people?
I think that to protect their best interests, they should be sterilized. As harsh as that sounds, I’m sure they do not need the additional responsibility of parenthood, and some may not be able to handle it. [heck, many NON-retarded people cannot handle it!]
If two mildly retarded (or retarded) people want to go at it like bunnies with eachother, and they are both been sterilized, then let them have at it! I’ll bet even adult mildly retarded people have sexual feelings. If there is no chance for them to become a parent, what’s the harm if both are consenting?
I can answer these questions from a standpoing of professional experience. For 8 years I was an advocate for people with mental retardation. I have dealt with these issues several times.
If it’s immoral for a normally intelligent man to seduce a mildy retarded woman where does that leave the woman if she enjoys sex?
She can enjoy partners (of any intelligence) who don’t take advantage of her. Also, vibrators, etc.
Let’s say that with the exception of he tubes being tied, she has a fully functioning adult body with the same sexual drives and needs as normally intelligent woman. Do you prevent her from enjoying sex period?
No. But as a caregiver/advocate, you try to help her make good decisions. And if she makes bad decision, you try to cushion the fall (birth control, STD knowledge and condom usage).
Do you (morally) limit her partners to men of similar mental capacity and more than likely limited sexual experience and fumbling technique, or do you (morally) allow her to have sex with normally intelligent men who are not likely to want to have meaningful relationships with her beyond the sexual part.
State law makes determinations of “competency”. As a general rule, people with mental retardation have the same rights to make bad choices as the rest of us do. It’s the womans choice, not someone elses.
If she wants and enjoys sex is it fair to limit her choice of partners who are willing to make the effort to seduce her, or not?
As above, it is ultimately the woman’s choice to make bad decisions. As a caregiver/advocate, it was my responsibility to say, “I think you are making bad choices. This is why . . . But it’s your choice to make.”
It’s a difficult place to be in - watching someone make bad choices. But we watch our friends do it too.
Whistlepig
p.s. - Astro, I think your original OP was a good question. But the questions you asked above seem more like looking for justification for taking advantage of someone. That sucks.
If you were talking about taking financial advantage of someone with mental retardation I think the replies would be more unequivically “immoral”.
I’m curious as to why everyone is specifying that the retarded individual is a woman. Am I to infer that the situation and its ramifications would be completely different if the individual were a man? Or what if both the seducer and the seducee were the same gender? Does the morality of the situation change?
Yeah, I think I’m prolly way off there.
I should have said “The majority of women I know…”
No clue on the greater majority of -all- women and it would be impossible to poll because who willingly admits to being that naive?
“That sucks” ??
Umm… I think you need to consider the question(s) in context. My followup questions came from turning the OP question around conceptually and trying (however clumsily) to see it from the mildly retarded woman’s perspective, in the context of her right to sexual satisfaction even if her partners were not in it for the long haul. I understand that you are very sensitive to these issues having been an advocate for the mentally disabled, but you need to separate my asking (IMO) logical questions surrounding the issue and some quasi-predatory intent on my part. I’m hot for edgy, nurturing, intellectually curious women that can cook, not mental children.
Dragonblink,
My answer still stands, no matter if the retarded person is male/female. Those who are capable of making the decision to take advantage of a retarded person shouldn’t be having sex with that person. Because where is the line of consent drawn?
Well, “That sucks” was in the postscript because I was trying to seperate my opinion from what I hoped were factual answers. I realize that your OP was hypothetical and that you are not predatory. Sorry if that came off otherwise.
As I said repeatedly, it is the woman (or mans) with mental retardation choice to engage in a relationship, even if her partners are not “in it for the long haul”. The rest of “normals” make similar bad decisions. Somewhere at work I have a journal article entitled, “The right of people with mental retardation to eat too many doughnuts” that I’ve shared with group home and day staff many times.
But to turn your OP around conceptually, ask this:
"Is it an immoral thing to have a person with mental retardation buy me a car because s/he likes to go for drives?
Because most people with mental retardation are clumsy drivers. And after s/he buys me the car, I may no longer take them for drives."
Whistlepig
Whistlepig-
I once faced this choice and decided agin’ it. Your comment:
“If you were talking about taking financial advantage of someone with mental retardation I think the replies would be more unequivically “immoral”.”
Is right on target. It helps me see the answer quite clearly. If you are taking advantage of her, no. If you are helping her yes.
Those who are developmentally delayed still have sexual needs, however, I am uncomfortable with any romantic or sexual relationship with a strong power imbalance. If the woman could clearly understand what is happening (and its consequences), then fine. But I think in a lot of cases, this is not the reality of it. I’ve known a few mentally challenged women who have ended up feeling taken advantage of, or confused because they read much more into a relationship. A few have had children from that sort of situation.
The mentally challenged person deserves to have their sexual needs met, however.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9706/30/glen.ridge.pm/
This may provide some answers, or at least give you an idea of what could happen. I remember this case, as it was quite famous. The defense trashed the victim, calling her a “nympho” who wanted it and lead on the “poor, defenseless boys.”
Any who has read Andrew Vachss’s Burke books will recognize this as the case that made the ADA resign.
So that’s how you do it! :smack:
This is a hot issue for me right now, as I am dealing with a case at work involving this. The woman in question is presumed competant under the law, but does has a diminished mental capacity. In short, she can make her own decisions, but needs help not to make poor ones.
In this case, the person doing the seducing was a staff member. A married, much older staff member. The power imbalance is pretty clear and he used it to his advantage not just to get her to have sex with him, but to keep it a secret for almost 2 years.
This woman (and many mildly retarded individuals) also has a childlike system of trust. She figured that if this guy was saying he would never lie to her or hurt her, than he must mean it. And when he told her that she had to keep it a secret because other staff and providers were just mean and nosy and didn’t want her to be happy, well, she believed that, too.
Legally, it seems that he did nothing wrong, because she keeps maintaining that she chose this relationship. Morally, however, I have to disagree. Her sense of trust has been violated, she has since lost this guy because the secret came out and of course he hightailed it, and she is depressed and confused and occasionally suicidal.
Immoral? IMHO, yes indeed.
-
-
- I don’t think it’s immoral, but there is a pretty good chance that your long-term plans for the relationship do not match theirs. Since you have more experience in dating situations, it’s likely that they will be caught unaware. Retarded people must get horny too though, and most sex that occurs is not the sort done on the way to the church or in pursuit of offspring. Are you willing to say that anyone who is even a bit retarded isn’t allowed to have sex at all? What does that sound like?
-
- If I would do it or not I don’t know. I can’t see wanting any long-term involvement with such a person, so it wouldn’t make a lot of sense to me–but if she was asking me because she thought she couldn’t ask anyone else, it would make me wonder. Before I touched her at all, I would make certain to have discussions about how much they already know about sex, and what casual sex is, and how it doesn’t neccesarily signify any long-term commitment.
~
This is one of the most disturbing things that I have read on the SD since squicking was defined. Who determines which people get sterilized? You do understand that these sorts of policies existed in the early part of the 20th century don’t you? The practice fell under the larger influence of Eugenics. Those policies, it is claimed, influenced Nazi policy makers. If we are talking about mildly retarded people, why doesn’t safe sex education apply? Why go to an extreme that most likely is irreversible?
Answer it this way. Would it be immoral if the guy was a neighbor and the retarded girl was your daughter?
Well, I crushed up some oxy and put in my four-year old nephew’s grape juice. Before I handed it to him, I asked if he wanted a powerful narcotic. He said, yes, so I gave it to him. He enjoyed it. Was that wrong?
Oh, I know it’s not quite the same thing. But people get so crazy when the topic is sex.
FWIW my retarded cousin married a “normal” man. She drove him crazy but perhaps it was a blessing for him when he was dying of cancer and she continued to believe he had a sore throat. Oh, she’d give the right answers if you asked her to discuss the situation, but it was easy to see she never really got it. Fortunately, she still doesnt really worry if someone gets sick, which we were all really worried about.
A child genius is not an adult. He’s a very smart child. A mentally retarded adult is still an adult. Manipulating a normal woman into bed with you is pretty revolting, too. It’s just easier to do if she’s not so bright.
Please be clear what you mean by “manipulating” a woman of normal intelligence, common sense, and assumedly possessing free will as an independent social actor, into bed. I’m just not clear on the diabolical manipulatory mechanisms that would have to be employed for an intelligent adult woman in possession of her faculties to be “manipulated” into spreading her legs and allowing a man to place his penis in her vagina.
No “diabolical manipulatory mechanisms” are necessary, dude.
It’s called alcohol. 
And on a serious note, I concur with adam yax and his comments on the abhorrent eugenics program (or is it pogrom?) advocated by feistyALgal.
She really needs to get out some more …