Is seducing a mildly retarded person immoral if she enjoys sex?

[astro]

***Originally posted by Spiff
No “diabolical manipulatory mechanisms” are necessary, dude.

It’s called alcohol. ***

Well…IMO getting drinking to excess and getting boinked tends to move you out of the “manipulated” category and into the “stupid behavior” one.

***And on a serious note, I concur with adam yax and his comments on the abhorrent eugenics program (or is it pogrom?) advocated by feistyALgal.

She really needs to get out some more … * **

Re her question quoted below it really is a topic for another thread… but… a few people here posed the question of determining the “immorality” of the seduction of mildly retarded person by asking “What if it was your daughter” which sharpened the focus quite nicely.

So, in that context, I will pose the question “If you had a daughter that was mildly retarded would you approve of her having her tubes tied?”.

In my case the answer would be “yes” if I was not satisfied that she could adequately care for a child or be responsible enough to take precautions against getting pregnant. To do otherwise is virtually (operationally) akin to allowing a child to become pregnant. Retarded people are protected to some extent in modernity by the grace of a civil society, but they are not fully competent social actors and to pretend othewise is, IMO, foolish in the extreme.
feistyALgal

What does everyone think about sterilization for retarded people?

I think that to protect their best interests, they should be sterilized. As harsh as that sounds, I’m sure they do not need the additional responsibility of parenthood, and some may not be able to handle it. [heck, many NON-retarded people cannot handle it!]

If two mildly retarded (or retarded) people want to go at it like bunnies with eachother, and they are both been sterilized, then let them have at it! I’ll bet even adult mildly retarded people have sexual feelings. If there is no chance for them to become a parent, what’s the harm if both are consenting

[DougC]

• • • Looking at this thread title again, a couple things spring to mind:
      “Is seducing a mildly retarded person immoral…”
• This seems to imply that you would be actively searching out a retarded person. That just plain sounds “odd”, mighty suspicious. In my earlier post, I had presumed that the retarded person would have been the one to initiate such contact. Having them find you is quite a bit different from you going looking for them…
  “…if she enjoys sex?”
• Well, heck scooter. Name one organism that doesn’t enjoy sex! It shouldn’t be surprising that a retarded person would want to get laid, but it also should be expected that they might have little realizatin of all the possible consequences of doing so.

---

So what I’m saying is… -uh, -I don’t know.
Something.
If a retarded girl invited me (and I was unattached) I wouldn’t automatically dismiss it out of hand, because it’s not as if they chose to be retarded, you know? We all get one life, one body and one brain and we’re stuck with it. To me that would be like automatically refusing to sleep with someone who had a physical disability just because of the disability… but at the same time, if I knew someone who preferred retarded people for sexual relationships, that would strike me as very suspicious.
~

[astro]

*Originally posted by DougC *
**- - - Looking at this thread title again, a couple things spring to mind:
“Is seducing a mildly retarded person immoral…”

• This seems to imply that you would be actively searching out a retarded person. That just plain sounds “odd”, mighty suspicious. In my earlier post, I had presumed that the retarded person would have been the one to initiate such contact. Having them find you is quite a bit different from you going looking for them…
  ~ **

Jesus… between you and whistle pig I’m going to have register an an incipient sexual offender before I post any more hypotheticals. The kind of women I’ve always been most attracted to are usually high emotional maintenace, edgy brainiacs that can cook a good veggie lasagna. Maybe there is something to be said for a simpler and more trusting love, but I think I’ll stick to the lasagna girls.

[j.c]

DougC

If a retarded girl invited me (and I was unattached) I wouldn’t automatically dismiss it out of hand,

This is actually a problem. Whatever we’re supposed to call them this week, people with subnormal intelligence often have trouble understand what is and is not acceptable. Just as a retarded man might impulsive grab and kiss the nice lady who gave him a snowcone, a retarded woman might … well, I’ve never seen anything as awful as “Girls Gone Wild” antics, but sometimes it’s harder for them to control the urge to make certain overtures or to touch themselves when aroused.

Which brings me to Astro’s last comment. I never considered this a sleazy hypothetical because the sexual behavior of people with diminished capacity is always an issue.

One of the first SDMB threads I ever posted to was on the sterilization thread. (Recap: Feel up should be left up to guardians, and for advocating that guardians take the option. Bad things can happen even in the best of situations. And by bad things, I mean babies.)

[Cervaise]

I’d like people who are seriously interested in the ethics of this question to seek out the South Korean film Oasis. It’s about a guy who, while not exactly retarded, is certainly slow, and has trouble with impulse control. He meets, and is attracted to, a woman who has cerebral palsy. While their first meeting goes horrifyingly wrong (he starts to force himself on her before realizing it’s a bad idea), they manage to communicate to some extent, and she becomes interested in him in return. (It sounds ickier than it is, trust me.) He’s the only person who seems to see the human being inside her prison of twitches and grunts, and after his initial mistake, he treats her with tenderness and honesty. Naturally, when others find out about it, they cannot understand, and they assume the worst; I don’t want to say anything else. It does, however, directly address many of the questions being debated in this thread, and while the movie is frequently quite difficult, even grueling, to watch, there are moments of absolutely transcendant beauty, and in the end you’re left gasping for emotional breath.

[coffeecat]

*Originally posted by astro *
**Please be clear what you mean by “manipulating” a woman of normal intelligence, common sense, and assumedly possessing free will as an independent social actor, into bed. **

Flattery and lies, I guess; my mind doesn’t really work that way. The same way you con an otherwise intelligent adult into parting with hard-earned money in exchange for nothing.

[Broomstick]

*Originally posted by feistyALgal *
What does everyone think about sterilization for retarded people?

I think, based on the historical record and past abuses of this, it should be approached with extreme caution.

In the first half of the 20th Century there WERE places were sterilization of the “retarded” was either permitted or mandated. There were some severe abuses. People of normal intelligence were labeled “retarded” for such things as having a child out of wedlock (and in at least one case a child was labeled retarded and sterilized despite evidence from school records that she was of normal intelligence. The basis of considering her retarded was that her mother (who had had her at a young age out of wedlock) had been declared retarded and sterilized and that she must have inherited her mother’s problem. Nor was she told of this - when an adult she struggled for years to have a baby, never knowing that had been made impossible when she was a child)

That is, in part, why it is now so difficult to get authorization for involuntary sterilization of anyone.

I think that to protect their best interests, they should be sterilized.

Um… I don’t think sterilizaiton serves the interest of the retarded person. I think it serves the interest of society. Let’s be honest here. It’s the concern of society about potential offspring and how they will be treated that serves as justification for this.

As harsh as that sounds, I’m sure they do not need the additional responsibility of parenthood, and some may not be able to handle it. [heck, many NON-retarded people cannot handle it!]

On the other hand, there are some highly functional retarded people who have successfully raised normal children. What makes a good parent is not the same thing measured by an IQ score.

These are complex situations. The should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. “Retarded person” does not labeld a fixed set of characteristics. Someone might be hopeless at reading and math yet be able to care for a child - be able to clean, cook, feed the baby, clean the house, etc. Abilities vary so widely.

I’ll bet even adult mildly retarded people have sexual feelings.

This isn’t hypothetical OF COURSE adult mentally deficient people have sexual feelings! They’re adults, aren’t they?

Which ties into the fact society still has a problem with the idea that any disabled person has sexual feelings or needs. Which is a whole 'nother issue.

If there is no chance for them to become a parent, what’s the harm if both are consenting?

Why do you assume both parties are retarded?

And don’t you think two retarded people are capable of hurting each other emotionally?

[irishgirl]

I think what we are all trying to say, in a roundabout way, is that while none of us have a problem with people with developmental disabilities having sex, we have a problem with them being “seduced” (that is, used and manipulated) by people of higher IQ.
( For the record, mandatory sterilisation is a HORRIBLE idea, it’s medically unethical, and in most civilised countries illegal, for good reason. It’s less risky (and reversible) to use the pill or depo provera )

[Grelby]

Weighing in on the whole mental age thing…

I have an uncle that is retarded. He is 50 years old. He holds a full-time job, but the combination of his mental impairement and cerebral palsy requires that he live in a group home with other people who are retired, with staff for assistance. He can’t really read, and doesn’t have the judgement to manage his own money, etc, by himself. His sense of humor could be considered juvenile. He gets a big kick out of slapstick and fart jokes.

So I suppose you could say that he is mentally a child. The fact is, however, that that’s far too simple a view to take on the matter, because regardless of his level of intelligence and reasoning skills, he is NOT a child. He is 50 years old, with all of the experience and baggage that comes along with the often challenging life he has led. He is very much aware of the fact that he is different. He is smart enough to know if the staff that are supposed to be taking care of him are being negiligent of cruel (and when we found out that the people taking care of him a year or so weren’t doing their jobs, heads rolled :D), and I believe that he is very much aware of when people are uncomfortable or frightened around him because of his disability. The jury is out on whether he would be able to tell he was being misled by someone emotionally, and how he would react when he found out the truth. I just don’t know. He HAS had girlfriends, but I don’t know anything about the sort of relationships he has had with them.

Anyway, I guess my point is that it’s such a complicated question that something like “mental age” may be nearly irrelevant when considering the question. I prefer to just not go there.

[sezyou]

I asked my wife this question and she thought it was “no-brainer”. She said "What if a married, normally intelligent couple got in an accident and the wife became brain damaged. By some of the reasoning I’ve seen on this subject, the husband would have to immediately stop having sexual releations with her on grounds of morality.

According to all of the latest information I’ve seen, rape, unwanted sex and all of the other “bad” things we hear about can happen just as easily in a marraige.

Of course it is silly to believe that a married couple should give up a healthy and fulfilling sex life, because of an impairment. It does make an interesting point and goes along with this very interesting Op.

[loupdebois]

OK, I regret not reading to the bottom, but as I’m sure you all understand I don’t always have time… I certainly have two cents to put in:

First off, the question of morality: half the people in here seem to believe that the question was whether it is OK to use the retarded woman’s disability against her in manipulating her to sleep with you (BTW, I use woman because that’s the gender used in the OP, and I hate typing his/her he/she 30 times in a paragraph). No question, that’s wrong. So is using your average intelligence to manipulate someone else of average intelligence. I don’t think that was the original question

Secondly, several posts seem to consider that the man is getting the better deal here. This question is the only reason I object to gender being used in the OP… people tend to see women as “giving” sex to men, which isn’t always the case.

Finally, my opinion: just like any other case of ensuring that it’s not rape (even by incident… consider sleeping with someone who’s intoxicated: a person needs to be able to give informed consent, and in short someone who isn’t capable of saying “no” is being raped), the person of normal intelligence would have to take the time to explain the situation carefully and ensure that it’s fully understood before proceeding. This may cramp some people’s sense of the romantic, but it’s necessary. If I’m sleeping with someone for a one-night-stand or non-romantic relationship, I explain it to them and, if necessary, reconfirm this understanding as necessary… I think it’s a question of respect and honor. This same protocol applies to someone who is intellectually challenged. If they truly cannot understand, then they’ll have to wait for someone who is in love with them. Simple as that. Friends-with-benefits is a tough concept to wrap your head around, if they can, then great. If not, too bad for you, get your jollies somewhere else.

[Venoma]

*Originally posted by feistyALgal *
**What does everyone think about sterilization for retarded people?

I think that to protect their best interests, they should be sterilized. As harsh as that sounds, I’m sure they do not need the additional responsibility of parenthood, and some may not be able to handle it. [heck, many NON-retarded people cannot handle it!]**

It was done.
http://collections.ic.gc.ca/abpolitics/people/influ_eugenics.html

I sincerely hope it never ever happens again. How horrible.

[j.c]

sezyou Not following your wife’s logic.

"What if a married, normally intelligent couple got in an accident and the wife became brain damaged. By some of the reasoning I’ve seen on this subject, the husband would have to immediately stop having sexual releations with her on grounds of morality.

If he’s holding up his end of the bargain by caring for her, and she still enjoys tenderness and sex? Why would he have to stop? If she’s in a coma, well, yes, then I think he should stop.

Venoma and others, please don’t draw an equal sign between eugenics and advocating sterilization for some people.

I advocate sterilization for people who carry the gene for Huntingtons chorea/disease . If a person with that gene asked my opinion, that’s what I would say. That is not the same thing as thinking that that person, or that person’s guardians (assuming this person was in a car accident and needs a guardian), should not be allowed to make the choice in that individual case. I am pro-choice. That doesn’t mean I think all pregnant women should abort, does it?

Intellectually impaired people are sexual. This is a serious and very complex issue.

[Grrr]

[slight hijack]

Ya know I’ve known some pretty stupid women in my life; HOT but stupid. Anyway as stupid as these women were I still couldn’t convince them that they needed to have sex with me.

I wonder if it works the same with mildly retarded women becuase these women I’m talking about were walking a fine line to say the least.

[Scotticher]

The problem I have with the OP is the word “seduced.” Seduction implies to me that the person doing the seducing, whether they are male of female, is taking advantage of the seduced. Mental capability notwithstanding, I don’t think that seducing someone is morally acceptable.

If a person has to be seduced, they are not “going along with the program”…therefore they need to be “seduced.”

Now, if we are talking about a person who is functioning on an adult level, I would suppose they are intelligent enough to decide at some point whether or not they WANT to be seduced, and behave accordingly.

But if that person is NOT functioning on an adult level, then it becomes a different thing. At that point, the seducer is taking advantage of someone who is not capable of understanding all the ramifications of BEING seduced, and is quite likely to be hurt in one way or another.

Therefore, I feel that YES…it is immoral and WRONG to “seduce” someone who is impaired. Yes, they may enjoy sex. But they may NOT understand that sex does not equal love in this situation. They may not understand that sex may mean pregnancy. They may not understand that sex may mean STD’s…death, in some cases.

If someone loves a person who is mentally impaired, and they are prepared to deal with whatever the consequences are of making love with them, then they are NOT seducing them…they are having a relationship with that person.

You know, now that I think about it, seduction is probably wrong all the way around, as it implies manipulating the other person into a sexual relationship. I think that is wrong. However, assuming that the person has the mental capacity to make an informed decision, that person is an active participant in whatever they decide to do. So, while it may be wrong to prey upon ANYONE by “seducing” them, if they are capable of making an informed decision, then they share whatever “blame” that might be oppropriate.

A good friend of mine, male, has been in situations where he met a woman in a bar who had had a great deal to drink. They “hit it off” and the woman would have been very willing to sleep with him. Actually, they WANTED to sleep with him. He wanted to sleep with them, too. But he always said that he couldn’t live with himself if he “took advantage” of someone who was impaired…in this case by alcohol. I have a great deal of respect for this man. He met his wife in this kind of situation, and they have been happily married for six years. It was not her usual practice to “get drunk and screw”…and I doubt that the relationship would have happened if he had been content to sleep with her that night…regardless of her willingness to do so.

So…I guess I think it is immoral to have sex with anyone who cannot for whatever reason make an intelligent choice to do so. If that reason is one of their own making, ie alcohol, then they bear the responsibility as well. If it is NOT of their own making, unless the “seducer” intends to remain responsible for the seduction and continue the relationship, it is WRONG. IMHO.

[DMark]

Gay man checking in with a story I have never told anyone.

It was the 70’s and I was young and single and in NYC. I went to the Wall Street Sauna…a Gay men’s haunt back in those day.

Met a guy and we had great sex, but didn’t really talk all that much. Not uncommon for those days.

He was cute and had a great smile and he got dressed and followed me out of the place.

Once we were on the street, I asked his name. I thought there might be some chemistry going here.

I stood there in shock as I realized he was mildly retarded. He told me his FATHER had dropped him off here, and was going to pick him up soon. We talked for awhile and I felt both sad and creepy at the same time. I was trying to figure out if I had done something wrong, but at the same time, I realized there was no way I could have known. We were both of legal age. We were attacted to each other and to be honest, we really had a great time together.

I waited and, sure enough, the guy’s father pulled up in a car and this kid went over and got into the car. The father gave me a furtive look and they drove off.

You know what is odd?

I sort of wish I had gotten his phone number. I don’t really know what I would have done, but the fact that the father was dropping his kid off at a Gay sauna and picking him up seemed sort of creepy as well - at the time.

In retrospect, I actually have to give that dad credit. He obviously knew his son was Gay. He also knew that the boy wanted sex. I guess he did what any father would do - provide a safe (pre-AIDS) environment for him to experience life.

[Typo_Negative]

*Originally posted by kunilou *
**Just because she enjoys sexual contact doesn’t give you the right to impose it on her without her consent.

If she lacks the mental capacity to make normally obvious critical distinctions, then she couldn’t really give fully informed consent, could she?

If you’re having sexual relations with someone who didn’t give fully informed consent, that’s rape. **

I’m having a little trouble with this.

You’re saying a midly retarded woman cannot legally have sex (because whoever she has sex with would be open to a rape charge).

I cannot agree.