My BIL killed himself on my wife’s birthday. I was mad as Hell at first but the more I talked to others at SOS (Survivors of Suicide - a support group for loved ones left behind) and TCF (The Compassionate Friends - another helpful group not specific to any mode of death) I came to realize that any disease can have a “terminal phase”. Look at how many people die, basically, from a bad head cold or heart disease brought on by dental issues. For mental illnesses, the terminal phase is suicide. We don’t have to like it, and through education and openly talking to others we can lower the numbers ------ but we’ll never stop it altogether.
No, I have never been suicidal. I still say it’s a selfish act BUT I understand that it’s the disease that is driving that, not what the person would want if they weren’t in pain. It’s putting their pain before everyone else’s pain, as if no one else would suffer for their actions. It’s a symptom of what’s wrong, not a value judgement of the person.
Suicidal people who think everyone would be better off or happier without them are delusional. I understand that they sincerely believe their viewpoint to be the truth. I can understand, intellectually, how that can lead to them killing themselves. That doesn’t make their world view the truth.
I am very, very glad that you have found a treatment that works for you. I wish everyone who has depression could have access to a treatment that works at least as well as yours.
One of the things I find aggravating about what I’ve seen of mental health treatment and insurance coverage in my friends who have mental illness is the pernicious notion that these treatments aren’t as urgent as, say, heart medication or insulin. That these folks can somehow wait or just do without for days or weeks because, somehow, it’s not seen as being as serious as diabetes or heart disease. It is. Someone who requires psychiatric medications to functions needs them just as badly as a diabetic needs insulin and they should be treated with the same seriousness and urgency. No, someone depressed isn’t going run out an off themselves because they missed one or two doses of pills but they WILL suffer for not having them and that is wrong.
Really? With his history of drug addiction(s) and alcoholism it’s not a surprise at all to me. Drugs and alcohol can function as pain killers, he was self-medicating for years. Thank god he did get professional help at some point otherwise he likely would have killed himself a lot earlier.
I find myself angry because goddammit, we failed to help this person enough. I know the special hell his family is going through, except theirs will be worse for being in the public spotlight. And I’m angry at the universe that someone who brought so very much happiness to others was in such agony himself. Maybe none of that is rational, but then, I’m not a Vulcan I’m a human being and we aren’t always rational.
That’s why I compare depression to diabetes, not cancer. Diabetes is controlled only by the patient taking responsibility and doing the day-to-day work. The professionals can help, in many cases they are essential, but it’s the diabetic person who is actually in control (or not).
And depression never goes away. It can, arguably, be put into a sort of remission but it’s always there in the background and will come back if not adequately dealt with.
Oh, and I didn’t answer the poll because, like some, I do view different suicides differently and while I might be mad at a person who committed suicide that doesn’t mean I hold it against that person. If someone is half-conscious or demented and punches someone trying to help them it’s still painful to the punchee and it’s still not acceptable but that doesn’t make the person morally culpable for what they did. I might be angry at someone who commits suicide, but I also recognize that they were likely in such a state that they weren’t morally culpable for the pain they caused. I’m still angry, but I don’t hold it against them.
However, sometimes professionals don’t help at all - there are people who don’t respond well enough to either therapy of medication to come close to feeling cured. For some people, being asymptomatic is as simple as taking a pill a day - and stopping after a year, and never needing to take it again. For others, its a lifelong struggle to find some combination of medicine and therapy that make a dent in the sense of sadness, worthlessnes, hopelessnes, and self loathing that is depression.
Depression may be more like weight - while most people are able to manage their weight by just eating and exercising sensibly - other people search their whole lives - and have multiple factors that contribute to an inability to maintain a healthy weight - some hormonal or physical, some psychological - you can’t lump everyone together and so it becomes difficult to judge (are they simply non-compliant on meds - or have they never discovered a medication that really works for them) because its unlikely you have the complete picture (its frankly unlikely THEY do - with weight or with depression).
ETA: I have an aunt that I suspect will eventually give up - she hasn’t found anything - not years of therapy, not medication, not behavioral change - that has helped her feel good and normal - and she’s been working on it for almost 50 years. Sometimes its better, sometimes its worse - but its never good, and there may come a day when its the perfect storm of situation and the reality of her illness.
This conversation reminds me of conversations revolving around fat shaming. Shaming people, calling them names, judging them, being appalled at their behavior, etc. is not the way to get them to change course. If you want to label suicides as selfish to reduce suicide, you’re doing it wrong.
This is my position.
Also, some acts are indeed selfish, but while the word carries negative connotation, selfishness isn’t always a bad thing. There is the general assumption that considering others is a good, by default (and it makes sense, in context), but sometimes you need to place yourself first. Now of course, when it comes to suicide, the real issue here is that the person needs (needed) to even juggle the idea.
It’s just more complex than throwing a label at it.
I would never judge someone who chose to take their own life to end their own pain, but I would never want someone I love to do that in order to end pain or stress they think they’re inflicting on me.
Well, see, that’s the thing - there are diabetics who do everything correctly and STILL have severe complications. Other people lose 20 pounds and seemed to be “cured”. And everything in between. We don’t have a terribly good understanding of that disease, either, it’s just that people think we do.
Depression might not even be just ONE disease - it could be several disorders with similar symptoms accounting for why different people respond to different treatements.
I suspect something like that happened with my sister - she slammed into a situation where her coping skills and strategies were no longer adequate.
You’re exactly right. One of the suicides I know dealt with it for decades (not depression, but other serious issues). He had a violently criminal brother who was in and out of prison, a sister who was in and out of institutions, and he was on a cocktail of medications for his issues. In the end, the drugs were no longer working as well, there were no others on offer, and he killed himself. He feared, rightly or wrongly, that he was a risk to others, but he didn’t want to spend the rest of his life in institutions. (His siblings, as far as I understand it, had the same types of diagnosis as he did.)
He was a good man, not a selfish one. He was kind. He deserves better than to have people who know nothing about him call him names and judge him for the horror he endured and tried to avoid.
I have no desire for those responses, wondering who is taking the potshots but won’t stand up for their opinion. Make your own poll if you want.
I have to question this “principle” though. Does this mean we should assume your posts in any thread dealing with a controversial topic may not be an honest expression of your true opinion?
Why is that a “yet”? Yeah, that is the tone of my posts, because it’s how I feel. I don’t think I ever denied it or said anything that contradicts it. Did I?
This strikes me as a keen insight.
I remember the actor Peter O’Toole referring to depression as, That Black Dog.
= = =
Its relentless and squirrels its way even into your sleep, for years. Fatigue sets in. There is no respit, ever.
Absolutely not selfish in the way that most people mean it when they are trying to shame the person who did it. In my long, long journey of dealing with my own mental illness, I’ve seen lots of people that go through a lifetime of horrific pain, fighting to stay alive, trying medication after medication and therapy after therapy, all in an attempt to not hurt their loved ones. It’s heartbreaking. And then you see them finally die of natural causes and everyone is mollified enough that they “stuck it out,” all the while, that poor person was in utter misery. So, I’ve always asked when is enough for those folks?
As for myself, I have (apparently) come out on the other side of all the things I’ve suffered from, at least for the most part. But instead of thinking how thrilled I am that none of my suicide attempts were ever successful, all I can feel is lucky. I’m still completely baffled as to why what I was doing finally worked. I constantly feel, “But for the grace of God…” indeed. I also realize my life, no matter how entrenched I try to make it, is purely a house of cards. I hope all that never overtakes me again, but who knows? So, again, just lucky and getting by. I understand why they get there. As others have said, the only thing suicide is is tragic. On all counts.
It seems to me that what is truly selfish is insisting on people enduring distress and/or pain because you would rather see them alive. It’s entitlement at the highest degree. Never could understand how people could say that a person who commited suicide was selfish with a straight face.
So well said, all three of you.
I know a lady that two weeks ago dropped her three toddlers off at the creche then went to a hotel and attempted to overdose.
If that isn’t selfish then the word has no meaning anymore.
I’d have to hear more details of the story, but it doesn’t sound likely that she was the best, most stable mother for them. Had you said she just left them in the other room and OD’d, that would be different, of course.
She is a doctor, her husband is a doctor and they have three very young children.
I have no intention of minimizing depression, but by all accounts her actions were the results of many months/years of working herself to the bone and saying nothing. Her actions would have had a massive, massive effect on the lives of those three children, you cannot tell me that she didn’t have any other options. It was a selfish, selfish act.
You seem to be implying that the Bob Newhart “just stop it” cure works. It’s not like she (or anyone contemplating suicide) can just choose between taking their lives or being well, and for some reason they choose the former.
Furthermore: it strikes me that you’d have a better case arguing for “inconsiderate”. “Selfish”? What exactly are people getting out of this oh so selfish act? If I’m right about my atheist worldview (and I’m sure I am), they are giving up everything. Not just their pain, but all pleasure, all experience of every kind, everything. They are the ones who give up their entire existences. Others only lose the company of a severely depressed loved one, but get to go on living their lives.
And if doctrinaire Christians are right, it’s even worse: they are consigning themselves to hell for all eternity. Yeah, real selfish.
In my experience our society is divided up into two groups:
1 The robust ones who cannot contemplate for a single moment why a person would want to forsake life.
2 The empathetic ones who wonder, don’t exactly understand, but sympathise and feel compassion for those who are lost.
Suicide is an intensely personal decision and there is no simple explanation for every case. Young people have strong volatile emotions and may feel driven to a sudden decision. Older people may be worn down by despair.
Frederich Nietzsche talked about nihilism - the absence of self. Utter nothingness.
I have been there.
There is no selfishness in suicide. A person who has reached that point has no “self” left. They completely believe the world is a better place without them and - ever considered this? - maybe it is.
The black pain cannot be escaped. All is null. Why would anyone choose to keep living that?