Well said. I did vote but the above statement is closer to my thoughts.
Selfish: putting your needs above other’s needs. Selfless: putting other’s needs above your own.
It is absolutely a selfish act. The problem with calling it that is people automatically get defensive because it has a negative connotation. But it is simply a fact. At that moment you are putting your own perceived needs above others. The opposite of selfless. Some rationalize it with “they are better off without me.” But that is usually not true. Your pain may be over but it just caused others pain to deal with for years to come. That is selfish. Some bristle at the word because it makes it seem petty like a kid not willing to share his candy. But it is not that. It is not necessarily a negative word. In some cases when all factors are weighed the selfishness may seem to be justified.
If the person committing suicide believes that the world is better off without them, then the act is not selfish; regardless of whether in actual fact the world is or is not better off, the person committing suicide is acting out of a concern for others, not out of a concern for him/herself. That is the opposite of selfishness.
Note that I am not saying this is always the case; a person may also choose to commit suicide because they feel that their needs (to be free of whatever misery is plaguing them) supercede what they feel will be the impact on others (an attitude of “they’ll get over it”), which most definitely is selfish.
I disagree. I think the discussion here shows that most of those who would question or criticize a decision to commit suicide do so out of deep empathy and compassion for the survivors left behind.
I think the distinction rather is between those who see only one point of view and those who see many.
In my view, someone who rigidly believes that suicide must always be a selfish act may be trying to hold too tightly to an idealized view of their family (and themselves), insisting that their lives were all happiness, that the person who committed suicide had no reason to feel other than happy, and therefore his decision was inherently selfish. Conversely, someone who insists that it must be selfish or illegitimate for the survivors to feel intense anger and pain may be holding on too hard to an idealized view of the person, out of a view that to feel negatively toward that person’s choice would be a betrayal or a failure of love.
It’s not a judgement of the person. It is categorizing the act. If the person is wrong about whether the world or the people are better off without them then it is still a selfish act. Even if they wrongly believe they are being noble. And even if you can emotionlessly come to the conclusion that the world is better off without a particular person that is not taking into account the long term trauma that is caused to those who have to find and clean up the act. The pain and sorrow left behind. The guilt. The children left behind. It is putting the needs or wants of one over the needs of the many.
Of course there is always an element of “it depends.” There are lots of reasons and not everything fits into a box. Clinical depression. Longterm painful terminal illness. Hitler. Etc. All situations have nuances that will change the perception.
There’s also the flip side… the families that are put through never-ending hell (as I did to my husband when I was at my worst, significantly contributing to his own, now life threatening, illness) while we struggle to make a go of being stable, sane, (hopefully) contributing members of society. I know of at least one case where the collateral fall out has been so far reaching and utterly devastating for the “loved” ones, that everyone would’ve been better served if that poor person would’ve been allowed to end their lives with dignity. The children especially, are still fucked up beyond belief well past middle age. And like the gift that just keeps on giving, that shit has indeed rolled down hill and now their kids are dealing with the repercussions as well. :mad: It’s all very well and good to always assume the best outcome is for folks to ‘stick it out,’ but the reality is often way more complex and heart rending than that glib sound bite.
Seems really selfless to me. If she stays in this life and it doesn’t get better, she might do it when they are ten - or twelve - young kids are pretty resilient. They won’t remember Mom if they are toddlers. They still have, at this age, a chance of a normal, happy, stable life with a normal, stable family - instead of growing up living with someone whose emotional state is NOT stable, always having to compensate for mom’s illness.
What about the whole “I don’t want to be a burden or have my loved ones deal with a demented, violent stranger that used to be their dad” motivation? Isn’t that putting others’ needs over your own survival instinct?
Which doesn’t sound like my dad at all (Edited to clarify: he did apparently see himself as a burden, but he was never demented acting or violent: he slapped me once when I was a snotty teenager and had told him to “shut up”, but then he apologized and clearly felt very bad about it). But that seems upside down, that he would’ve had to be a much worse dad when he was alive, for his decision to be seen as a non-selfish one.
I’m voting for this even though I already voted in the pool. I know what they were going through and I don’t blame them. It’s not the choice I would have made but I’m not them.
I was 15, and that was about a quarter century ago. My opinion has been pretty consistent, although certainly the loss becomes less painful over time.
No two people are going to have the exact same opinion about anything, but I don’t know of anyone in our family or circle of friends who has expressed any blame or anger towards him. Just sadness and a sense of missing him.
Nor are you entitled to inflict unhappiness on others.
I get that people who commit suicide are in a world of hurt and may have endured there for a very long time. However, one person’s pain does not give them an unbridled right to inflict pain on others, any more than being infected with HIV gives them an unbridled right to infect others with a virus. Yes, it sucks to be ill. It sucks even worse to be chronically ill. It also sucks to be hurt by the actions of others, and like it or not, suicide does hurt other people. Yes, depression sucks so badly that sometimes whether the person lives or dies they will cause pain to those around them.
However, I get rather annoyed at the people who say survivors have no cause or right to be angry at the person who killed him or herself, that they are somehow selfish or cruel for having those feelings. Yes, they do, in fact, have a right to feel whatever it is they feel. It is, in fact, NORMAL to be angry when someone dies for ANY reason. Not everyone is angry, of course, everyone is different, but anger, sadness, resentment, feelings of abandonment, and pain are in fact normal parts of grieving. No saying “well, he killed himself and he’s not in pain any more, being angry is not allowed”. Sorry - if we shouldn’t deny the person who killed himself was in pain then we shouldn’t deny the survivors their emotions whatever those emotions may be - glad, sad, mad, whatever.
This is why I said I was interested in hearing from those who are survivors of suicide and consider it selfish, but “not so much” from those who are opining from the sidelines.
Well, OK, I do consider it selfish to kill yourself. However, I can understand why people kill themselves, at least on an intellectual level, even when I disagree with their decision. While there are some very limited circumstances where I, personally, feel suicide is arguably acceptable for the most part I think it to be a mistake and wrong decision.
If someone asks me to try to understand the point of view of the suicide then they should at least pay me the courtesy of treating my point of view as equally valid.
There’s a distinct difference, IMO, between pain that people basically take onto themselves (pain of losing someone) and other sorts of pain. It is, in fact, the former that strikes me as the selfish pain in this equation.
