What more stories/contexts/definitions do you need, Meatros? They were already provided to you. The question I presented here doesn’t not involved any real life scenarios. I didn’t try to make the hypothetical father not a racist, I merely asked all of you if he is racist based on the information I provided. All I had been doing here was to debate you and to raise my point that he is unlikely a racist based on the information mentioned in this thread all along.
Racist is wrong, I knew that. But what’s so wrong with preferring one’s grandchild to be one’s own kind (race)? Yes, we are talking about race here, but why does everything related to race have to be racist or not racist? Wasn’t that a burden to the society? Does the father discriminate blacks by expressing such wishes? Racist is a very negative word in this country, but that act of that father might not be negative. If all he has is goodwill, why labelling him racist?
How many of you here have the secret thoughts that you really prefer your grandkids look like your own kind? Being pressured by the political correctness, is it possible that no one would have the guts to say so publicly even you do have such a thought? Are you a racist?
If you discriminate against people for something as trivial as the amount of melanin in their skin, it has no purpose other than ignorance or vanity. And yes, it is racist.
The problem is you kept changing the scenario whenever anyone accused the “father” of being racist. It seemed like to me, and it still does, that you are ardently trying to maintain that the “father” isn’t a racist.
When you discriminate by race, you are being a racist. There should not be any difference in the “father’s eyes” between children of different races. He is discriminating against blacks, IMHO, by prefering a white child over a black child. That’s the message of “his own kind” that I’ve done my best to decode. Racist is a negative word, it’s a word that denotes prejudice; which from the example you have provided is an apt word. That is why I am labeling the father a racist-his wishes are that of preference, they have nothing to do with the welfare of either the daughter or her child.
I don’t think it’s a matter of political correctness-I really don’t have a desire for my child/grandchild to be of “my own kind”-whatever that means. I see people as equals and it doesn’t matter to me a bit whether my child is black, green, white, purple or blue. The fact that it’s my child is all I need. I don’t value skin color as one of my determining factors in having a child.
I’m positive their are people on this board who feel the same way you do. Personally though, I don’t. Chalk it up to whatever you want, I don’t care-you already think that I’m being disingenous with you. I’ve participated in many “racially” motivated threads of late and I can’t stand prejudice/superiority/or elitism in any fashion.
I base my likes and dislikes on the person’s character. I treat people how I would like to be treated. It’s the golden rule and I think if you want to live by it, you should start by removing your prejudices.
vbd:Racist is wrong, I knew that. But what’s so wrong with preferring one’s grandchild to be one’s own kind (race)?
Because it’s racist. Racial separatism and exclusionism, concern with “racial purity” or “preserving one’s own racial kind”, or not wanting your grandkids to have a different skin color from you are all racist notions. You seem to be obsessed with the idea that only outright hatred and denigration of other races should count as “racism”. That is not a correct interpretation of the generally accepted meaning of “racism”, and you are wasting everyone’s time trying to insist that it is.
If all he has is goodwill, why labelling him racist?
Where’s the “goodwill” in thinking “People outside my race are ‘not my kind’, and I don’t wan’t them in my family”? Doesn’t sound like goodwill to me: sounds like “discrimination or prejudice based on race”, which is, as we keep telling you, racism.
How many of you here have the secret thoughts that you really prefer your grandkids look like your own kind?
Not me, and there’s no secret about it. verybdog, you are just going to accept the fact that not everybody shares these prejudices about wanting to keep your own family members within some “acceptable range” of skin color. Lots of us are quite comfortable with having members of different races in the same family, and we don’t secretly think that people in other racial groups are somehow “not our own kind” enough to be included. Because that would be racist, and we’re not racists.
Get it? Or are you just going to go on asking the same question over and over and over and refusing to believe the answer?
Really.
[Gump]“Racist is as Racist does”[/Gump]
Even if he is otherwise a sweet fellow who is not consciously acting out of ill will or ideology, and sincerely believes with all his heart he’s just doing what’s best for his girl, and acts in case (B) just out of misinformation, or sociocultural conditioning, or temporary spirit possession, “Daddy” is acting out a prejudice based on racial identity – racist conduct.
As to “harboring secret thoughts” re: my own family tree, I laugh – but of course we’re such rank mongrels it would be folly for me to care. But I don’t even freakin’ care about whether they share a nationality, religion or a common mother language with me – and THAT is an extremely UN-“PC” thing for someone of my background to say.
Maybe, just maybe, this thread could be just a tad more productive than a skipping record if you’d just establish what you mean by “own kind”. Does “own kind” = physical features? If it does, then why did you specify black in the OP. And if it does, wouldn’t a swarthy Sicilian with curly hair be an objectional mate? Compare those guys with your average Scandinavian and tell me that they even look like members of the “same kind”.
And would someone who looks like my dad–who is a black man who favors a strong resemblence to Mr. Kotter–be an objectional mate? Would Mr. Kotter (classified as a white man) be okay for marriage, but not my black Mr. Kotter look-alike dad? Even though both men sported afros back in the 70’s? Even though both are light in the color department?
If “own kind” = a participant in “white” culture, then okay. But would a black man who was born and raised among white folks-- and was so like most white folks that he even self-identified as culturally white and regarded black culture as being as completely foreign it him as it probably is to Martha Stewart–be an objectional mate?
If “own kind” = anyone who is considered white, then okay. But would a Arab-American be an objectional mate? Many of them consider themselves to be white (at least it’s been my experience that this is the case) and in most textbooks I’ve come across, Arabs are listed as caucasians (as are Indians).
The thing that sticks out most in the OP is that the father specified an objection to black, as if all other races are okay to marry except that one. If the dad wants to keep his family lines “pure”, why does he not just tell his daughter to only marry white people? Why does he have to ban blacks from the family, without qualification, but, by virtue of omission, accept Asians, Latinos, and “white” people who look nothing like the dad’s family?
Perhaps if you have any good answers to these questions, then my headache will go away and your audience will more informed about where you stand.
physical features, if what you meant was the feature, or contour of a body or face, yes. Apparently facial, body structure of whites and blacks are quite different in general. And this has nothing to do with Mr. Kotter, the handsome guy, we are not talking about beauty contest here. Skin color is part of that features too. The father prefers physical features similar to his phenotype. Same hair, skin, facial, nose structure. Why the father singled out black in (B)? Because he (assuming he’s white) knows that once his daughter marries a black, the physical features will very likely be lost. A swarthy Sicilian white wouldn’t do any good here if the father is not a Sicilian himself. In order to get that particular physical features, you have to marry within that particular “race”, right?
a participant in his own culture, No. As you mentioned a black could share the same culture with the father.
Anyone who is considered white, No. The father in (B) can be of any skin color of your choice, as long as the daughter is his biological daughter. Arab-American won’t be an ideal mate if the father is not an Arab.
That the father specified an objection to black is not to say that all other races are okay to marry except that one. That’s a misunderstanding. Why does he not just tell his daughter to only marry white people? Because there are so many different kind of white people out there, the father only prefers a particular type. A black son-in-law will immediately destroy his wish, so will a different kind of white.
It’s like you walking into a Duncan Donut shop, you found a garden variaty of them on the self. Is it racist or “donutist” if you prefer to eat only one kind of donut morning after morning? Is it possible that you are dicriminating the other type of donuts? Are you a “donutist”? Can I accuse you to be one.
verybdog, if the father in your example were a real person I would be very concerned about his obsession with having grandchildren that look just like him. Considering that he’s willing to brainwash his daughter to ensure this, I wouldn’t put it past him to rape the poor girl to guarnatee that the family’s precious genes are preserved and not diluted by mixing with others not of “their kind”. I don’t know what your obsession with your bizarre and thankfully improbable hypothetical case is, but racism may be the least of the imaginary dad’s problems…and yours, as well.
I would have to agree wtih DMC here—being a racist is this ‘fathers’ smallest issue in life! Best put him out of his misery and not try to evolve him–each time I read this thread he gets more and more scary!
vbd:Because there are so many different kind of white people out there, the father only prefers a particular type. A black son-in-law will immediately destroy his wish, so will a different kind of white.
Thank you for at long last elucidating what this hypothetical father’s actual intentions and goals are in this case. As we’ve said before, if he is just as opposed to “the wrong kind” of white person as he is to a black person for a son-in-law—in other words, if his goal is simply to replicate his own phenotype in his grandchildren as closely as possible—then no, he is not a racist.
On the other hand, as we’ve said, he is creepy, pathetic and morbidly obsessed, and we still don’t like him. If all he wants is little replicas of himself, for heaven’s sake, why doesn’t he just clone himself and let his poor daughter marry whom she likes?
Thank you for finally clarifying a little better. Now that we have a broader look into the “father’s” mentality I can conclude that he isn’t racist-he’s crazy. The only way he’s going to really perserve his look and such is if he tells his daughter to bear his own child. I would say that the daughter would have to do more than just marry within a particular race. The daughter would have to have a man hunt all over the world, to find men that fit such characteristics. After the man hunt she would have to delve into the person’s history, looking at previous family members to find out what the ressesive genes and the dominant genes are.
This makes the process even harder, because instead of a world wide manhunt, the daughter has to be incredibly lucky and find some good samples in her city (or state). Culture, IMHO, has very little to do with race, proximity is a major factor.
In order to achieve the “father’s” crazy dream he could not just eliminate people based on race. He would have to delve into their personal history.
The father should leave “race” out of it. The “father” should just inseminate his daughter and be done with it.
People aren’t donuts, it’s a bad analogy.
What this “father” is secretly wishing, IMHO, is that he could impregnate the daughter himself. That’s the only way to assure his plans for the crazy dream of replicating his desired type.
Would this hypothetical “father” love a child that didn’t look like him?
Read the part in bold. If some whites are just as “unsuitable” as some blacks are, then why is he making black forbidden without also stipulating everyone else who is also “unsuitable”. Wouldn’t it make more sense and enhance the clarity of his obsessive wishes to just tell his daughter that she has to marry a man with XYZ characteristics, rather than telling her what NOT to marry?
And when he specifies black, is he talking about people who are literally black (very dark skin) or is he talking about people who are considered members of the black race? Because if a black man has European features that give him a “white” appearance (like my father, for instance), then why does his black status negate his chances with the daughter?
Even though the hypothetical father is white, he could very well look a lot like my dad, right? But because society calls my dad black, he’s black. And therefore, according to you, “unsuitable”.
By saying saying black, as if all black people look the same and are all completely different from whites, this hypothetical dad demonstrates a rather narrow-minded–if not racist–view of black folks. When the spectrum of so-called black people ranges all the way from blue-eyed Vanessa Williams to ebony-skinned Wesley Snipes, who’s to say what a person looks like just because they are called black?
I’m a black woman. Does that tell you anything about what I look like? No, it doesn’t. When black people can have straight hair, kinky hair, curly hair, brown skin, white skin, yellow skin, thin lips, big lips, tiny noses, big noses, and everything in between the extremes of every feature imaginable, there’s no way you can predict what I look like without knowing little more than that I’m a black woman.
That’s also true. I think the reason why I’ve missed these points is because I’ve been caught up in why the “father” would perfer a child that looks like him, instead of his preconceived notions of what a “black” person looks like. On the face of it, the OP has missed the distinction that black people do not all look alike-I mean it’s perfectly possible that the “daughter” could marry a black person and have children that looked like the father. Granted I still think it’s a bit bizarre that the father wants, what seems to be, an exact clone of his family, but I digress.
Meatros, I came up with it on the spur of the moment actually. You know how people, when trying to get the attention of someone who’s name they don’t know, will say “Hey you with the ten-gallon cowboy hat, come over here!”? Once I heard someone say “hey you with the face!” and thought to myself, wow that was pretty a good way to get a specific person’s attention. How many people have faces? Couldn’t be more than 9.8 billion or so.
So I use the name to get the attention of anyone who has a face.
Nope. But I’m curious to know who and what you are talking about.
