Is the Apocalypse upon us?

[Rune]

Diogenes, can you recommend some good books on the history & interpretation of the bible?

[Siege]

@WeRSauron

I would suspect a good, faithful response to the question, “Is the great End of Days upon us?” could be: Perhaps it is, perhaps it is not; however, no one but the Father knows for sure, so our speculation is worthless and it detracts from our Christian mission here and now. People asked this question of the Lord and we ought to take to heart His response as if He were speaking to us today (pesher!): “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only” (Matthew 24:36).

Well said, sir! Well said! I’ve been reading A.D 1000, Living on the Edge of the Apocalypse by Richard Erdoes. It talks about the way people responded to the end of the first millenia. According to that source and others I’ve read, people fully expected the world to end to the point of giving away their possessions, including their land, dressing in sackcloth and ashes and, in general, trying to purge themselves of their sins. On New Year’s Eve, A.D. 1000, they crowded churches and overflowed Rome expecting the world to end at the stroke of midnight. They had reasons as valid as any today, including the appearance of a comet, a symbol of impending doom, meteors, and various inexplicable omens and disasters. From what I’ve read, a tsunami’s nothing!

Over one thousand years later, we’re still here. Jesus said He, Himself didn’t know when the end would come, only God the Father. Even if I were miraculously given some insight that Christ doesn’t have telling me the world would end at the stroke of midnight tonight (I would ask God to clarify whether He meant midnight in Jerusalem, London, New York, or some other city), about the only change I’d make to my plans is I’d stop into church today, not Sunday, call some folks to tell them I love them, and urge a gentleman of my acquaintance to come back earlier than planned if the Apocalypse were due at midnight in Jerusalem or London. If I learned it was to happen next week or next year, I hope I wouldn’t change my behaviour in any way, because to do so is akin to the mindset of “Look busy! The Boss is coming!” The Gospels tell us to be busy at all times, because we won’t know when the end is coming.

As a devout Christian, I feel I am called to do certain things in this world. I am to do them whether the world ends tonight or two thousand years from tonight, or twenty thousand years from tonight. As a devout Christian, I’m told I’m assured of my place in heaven. As a result, rather than worrying about that, for it is well and truly taken care of, my understanding is I’m to get on with my work here on earth: “Do justice, love mercy, walk closely with your God,” and those old chestnuts, “Love the Lord, your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. . . . Love your neighbor as yourself.” Worrying about the Apocalypse doesn’t fit any of those orders.

CJ

[Colophon]

Don’t be daft - SSNs aren’t the mark of the beast. Barcodes are.

No, wait - Mondex cards are. Or was it Motorola Biochips? I forget. All these Satanic devices can be so confusing.

[elucidator]

MicroSoft. No question.

[Revtim]

I’ve heard it’s the end times from my fundie family since I was old enough to understand words (1970’s).

On a slightly related note, my grandmother can’t say ‘tsunami’, so she said yesterday how terrible it was all those folks died in the “tiramisu”…

[Chefguy]

@Revtim

I’ve heard it’s the end times from my fundie family since I was old enough to understand words (1970’s).

On a slightly related note, my grandmother can’t say ‘tsunami’, so she said yesterday how terrible it was all those folks died in the “tiramisu”…

Yeah, they got their just desserts.

[rfgdxm]

@Diogenes the Cynic

You still need the Temple. No Temple, no boom.

Is that required according to the NT? For Jews, they believe that the Messiah will either rebuild of bring the Temple. However, Jesus died before the Temple was destroyed. Is Jesus quoted anywhere in the Bible as prophesizing the destruction of the Temple, and promising that he would come back after that and rebuild/bring it? (Although even if this isn’t mentioned in the NT, I’d think it would be odd for any Christian to think rebuilding/bringing the Temple wouldn’t be on Jesus’ to do list when he returns.)

And, I don’t see why the modern restoration of Israel as a nation & Jerusalem as its capital necessarily would be a sign of the end times. If Israel were in the near future destroyed by its enemies in a war, this wouldn’t be a problem for Christianity at all. From the Christian perspective, when Jesus does come back nothing will be beyond his power. With just a wave of his hand, he could remove all the enemies of Israel from the land, and bring the Temple from Heaven and rule the world from Jerusalem.

[Lumpy]

@FriarTed

The only reasons I think we have any reason to consider the possibility of the
actual Apocalypse coming upon us…

the restoration of Israel as a nation & Jerusalem as its capital

globalization of human interaction (communications, commerce, warfare)

It’s also intriguing that thanks to genetic tracing we’re now rediscovering “lost” Jewish peoples like that one tribe in Africa, or the Cohen’s possible decent from the Levi.

One might also think that any global cataclysm that will effect the entire human race would have to take place before a significant number of people leave the Earth for colonies elsewhere in the Solar System. Or before genetics/ nanotech allow us to fundamentally change the nature of the human species. Next two or three centuries at most.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@rfgdxm

Is that required according to the NT? For Jews, they believe that the Messiah will either rebuild of bring the Temple. However, Jesus died before the Temple was destroyed. Is Jesus quoted anywhere in the Bible as prophesizing the destruction of the Temple, and promising that he would come back after that and rebuild/bring it? (Although even if this isn’t mentioned in the NT, I’d think it would be odd for any Christian to think rebuilding/bringing the Temple wouldn’t be on Jesus’ to do list when he returns.)

There are many who interpret Jesus’ words in Matt. 24:15 as meaning that the Temple will be rebuilt during the Endtimes. See also Revelation 11:1 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

I was just kidding around a bit but there are more than a few eschatalogical Christians who believe that the temple has to be rebuilt before Jesus can come.

[rfgdxm]

@Diogenes the Cynic

There are many who interpret Jesus’ words in Matt. 24:15 as meaning that the Temple will be rebuilt during the Endtimes. See also Revelation 11:1 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

I was just kidding around a bit but there are more than a few eschatalogical Christians who believe that the temple has to be rebuilt before Jesus can come.

But isn’t this ass-backwards? Shouldn’t Jesus himself rebuild the Temple?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Rune

Diogenes, can you recommend some good books on the history & interpretation of the bible?

I think you would have to specify what aspects of the Bible you were mostly interested in. Are you interested in the NT? The Hebrew Bible? Are you more interested in historical or literary aspects?

For a good overview of the NT which goes into authorship, dating, intent and the synoptic problem, I would suggest Who Wrote the New Testament? by Burton Mack.

For a good overview of the Hebrew Bible as well as the NT, I would suggest (oddly enough) Asimov’s Guide to the Bible. By Isaac Asimov (yes, that Isaac Asimov). I reccomend it especially for the OT volume, for its accessibility and entertainment value and for Asimov’s unsentimental presentation of facts and historical context. Some of it’s a little dated now but it’s still well worth the read.

If you can specify more precisely what you’re interested in, I can probably recommend something less general and more targeted towards your interests.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@rfgdxm

But isn’t this ass-backwards? Shouldn’t Jesus himself rebuild the Temple?

Well, the Jewish Messiah is supposed to rebuild the Temple but I don’t think a lot of Christians necessarily are aware of that. Plus a lot of them say he already rebuilt the Temple with his body.

The NT does not explicitly say that the Temple has to be rebuilt, the expectation by some rests on a few matter of fact references to occurrences at the Temple during the endtimes. For instance, 2 Thessalonians says “that day will not come” (the return of Jesus) until “the rebellion occurs” and the “Son of perdition” must “take his seat in the Temple of god, proclaiming himself to be God.”

Obviously, the Son of Perdition can’t do that unless there’s a Temple to take a seat in.

[Marley23]

Again, huh?

“Is it the Apocalypse yet?”
“Is it the Apocalypse yet?”
“Is it the Apocalypse yet?”
“Is it the Apocalypse yet?”

Every time something bad happens. Humanity has to get over itself: the death of 130,000 humans is not the end of the world. It’s an awful tragedy for us; the world doesn’t care. Much less the universe.

Earthquakes happen all the time. Hundreds a day, I think. (Hurricanes happen all the time, too.) The fact that one strikes a populated area - which is bound to happen when there are so freaking many of them - is a coincidence. An earthquake in China 30 years ago killed twice as many people as this one. There have been three or four quakes that killed more people than this one did in the last 80 years. Why weren’t those the end of the world?

[GLWasteful]

@rfgdxm

But isn’t this ass-backwards? Shouldn’t Jesus himself rebuild the Temple?

Nah. He’s setting up a subcontracting firm to get that taken care of.

Of course, when the time comes for ribbon cutting. . .

[Lumpy]

If you can give credence to the Hal Lindsey Late Great Planet Earth series, it will be the Antichrist himself who rebuilds the temple, so he can proclaim himself the Messiah.

[BrainGlutton]

@Jaade

One thing I distinctly remember from my teachings about Revelations and the “end times” quite specifically was the portion that mentioned a man who would come to power as the leader of the most powerful nation in the world, and who would unite the world. I looked through Revelations just now, the King James Version, and saw references to familiar warnings from my youth.

Specifically Revelations 13 , which mentions the infamous branding that people of the world would have to allow to be able to “buy or sell”. This is supposed to be the Mark of the Beast, displayed either on the right hand or in the forehead.

Weeelll . . . there are different theories about that. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation:

Interpretative Views of Revelation as Biblical Prophecy
The Preterist View

The view of Preterism holds that the contents of Revelation constitute a prophecy of events that were fulfilled in the 1st century. This view depends critically on an early date of Revelation, c. 68, since any later date makes the “prophecy” post-date the events prophesied. Even accepting that date leaves a narrow margin of 1-2 years before the fulfilment occurs.

Preterist interpretations generally identify Jerusalem as the persecutor of the Church, “Babylon”, the “Mother of Harlots”, etc. They see Armageddon as God’s judgment on the Jews, carried out by the Roman army, which is identifed as “the beast”.
The Futurist View

The futurist view assigns all of the prophecy to some future time, shortly before the second coming. Futurist interpretations generally predict a 3 1/2 year period of intense persecution, after (or before) which the “Antichrist” (An incarnation of Satan) proclaims himself the Messiah and sets up a kingdom in Jerusalem, from which he conducts a campaign to take over the world and stamp out Christianity. Some variants of this interpretation portray Israeli Jews as collaborators with the Antichrist; Pat Robertson was sharply criticized for actually stating that “The Antichrist is probably a Jew alive in Israel today.”

The futurist view, as such, was first proposed by two Catholic writers, Lacunza and Ribera. Lacunza wrote under the pen name “Ben Ezra”, and his work was banned by the Catholic church. It has grown in popularity in the 19th and 20th centuries, so that today it is probably most readily recognized. Books about the “rapture” by authors like Hal Lindsey, and the more recent Left Behind novels (by Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHaye) and movies, have done much to popularize this school of thought.
The Historicist View

The historicist view regards the prophecy as spanning the time from the end of the first century through the second coming of Christ.

Politically, historicist interpretations apply the symbols of Revelation to the gradual division and collapse of the Roman Empire, the emergence of a divided Europe in the West and a Muslim empire in the East, and the collapse of the Eastern Empire while Europe attempts to re-unite and re-create the Roman Empire.

Ecclesiastically, historicist interpretations see Revelation as teaching that the Church would expand, despite persecution, until it “conquered” the whole world–but, in the process, would gradually evolve into an apostate system within which true Christians would be a persecuted minority. The apostate Church is associated with the symbols of the “Mother of Harlots” and with “Babylon”. It is seen as an “Antichrist system” which exists for much of history, rather than expecting a single “Antichrist” in the last days, as futurist interpretations do.

According to historicist interpretations, the second coming of Christ occurs about the time that a partly-reunited Europe starts to wage war against Israel. This view is held mainly by conservative Protestant Christians. The exact constitution of this confederacy differs between interpretations: in some it is mainly composed of Eastern European countries, notably Russia; in others, Western European; some include England, while others suggest that England and former Commonwealth nations will oppose the confederacy. In all historicist interpretations, Christ defeats this confederacy, rescues Israel from certain destruction, judges apostate Christianity and vindicates the true believers, and sets up a kingdom on earth.

The earliest Christian writers adopted a historicist viewpoint, though at such an early date the distinction between historicist and futurist views was less pronounced. Historicist interpretations tend to be millenarian, emphasizing the literal reign of Christ on earth, and as that doctrine receded in importance, so too did the historicist focus in interpretation. Today, historicist interpretations are favored in the most ardently millenarian sects.

Many Protestant writers today use this school of interpretation as the foundation for an anti-Catholic polemic, but it should be noted that such is not an inherent property of historical interpretations. Many Catholic writers in the fourth and fifth centuries applied the notion of future apostasy to their own church, in various ways. Some argued that an apostasy would arise within the church. Others argued that this had already happened, and cited one or another sect which arose over some theological dispute. What differs between interpretations is the identity of the apostasy.
The Eastern Orthodox View

Eastern Orthodoxy has an interpretation that does not fit well into any of the above classifications. It treats the text as simultaneously describing contemporaneous events and as prophecy of events to come, for which the contemporaneous events were a form of foreshadow. It rejects attempts to determine, before the fact, if the events of Revelation are occurring by mapping them onto present-day events, taking to heart the Scriptural warning against those who proclaim “He is here!” prematurely. Instead, the book is seen as a warning to be spiritually and morally ready for the end times, whenever they may come (“as a thief in the night”), but they will come at the time of God’s choosing, not something that can be precipitated nor trivially deduced by mortals.

[BrainGlutton]

@Lumpy

If you can give credence to the Hal Lindsey Late Great Planet Earth series, it will be the Antichrist himself who rebuilds the temple, so he can proclaim himself the Messiah.

Perhaps we should nuke Jerusalem with dirty bombs, so that nobody can go near the site for another thousand years? You know, as a preventive measure. (First you evacuate all the people and give them $100 each for the inconvenience, of course, gotta be fair.)

[Declan]

@Marley23

Earthquakes happen all the time. Hundreds a day, I think. (Hurricanes happen all the time, too.) The fact that one strikes a populated area - which is bound to happen when there are so freaking many of them - is a coincidence. An earthquake in China 30 years ago killed twice as many people as this one. There have been three or four quakes that killed more people than this one did in the last 80 years. Why weren’t those the end of the world?

Cause people need something to believe in , even if it means the end of the world. Yes Earthquakes happen all the time , but in small doses. When you have a hollywood size natural disaster , it invites the weak minded to re-visit stuff they learned in sunday school.

Mainly I think they want someone like Dio , who seems to be well versed in the biblical studies , to tell em, no its not the end of days.

Declan

[GLWasteful]

@Declan

Mainly I think they want someone like Dio , who seems to be well versed in the biblical studies , to tell em, no its not the end of days.

Actually, I think that most of those who want to believe that their belief system is being proven true don’t want anyone telling them that the end is not nigh.

They just want to believe that it’s all going to hell so that they’ll soon be in the lovin’ arms of Jesus, where their Visa card balance doesn’t mean a thing.

[Nobody]

<Sigh>, when I was a kid, I used to believe that the end times were near. The thought made me so happy, I kept hoping and hoping that it would come at any minute. Before learning to hate “Christian Television” I would watch end time shows like Jack Van Impe (He kept saying that King Juan Carlos of Spain would be the antichrist because his name came out to 666 and he supposedly fit some other criteria :rolleyes: ). The thought of this miserable world and all its injustices and suffering would come to an end made me very happy.
Then, time kept passing by and nothing happened. Eventually my enthusiasm and hope went away. And then I learned that, although my own denomination believes that Jesus will come again, still, Revelations was, as DTC described, just a coded messages to the Christians of that time.
So, even though I believe in a second coming, I think it’s useless to look towards the signs described in revelations, since that book isn’t about the second coming like most people believe.