Is the J-C God evil?

[erislover]

Well, Red, of course you get to work every morning (assuming you work, of course), but I don’t know which way or exactly how your car operates. God didn’t leave it to really explain his workings, only that he felt this and that way etc. I mean, when you were a child you didn’t understand why your parents commanded or offered this or that, but you of course knew what they commanded or offered.

At least, from this Discordian’s persective. Of course, it makes no sense to ask what Eris’s ways are. She has no ways, by definition (except that, wherever she goes, there she is in all her hottiness).

[Drastic]

By the way, who is this John Shelby Spong? What is his alternative theology to atonement?

An Episcopal Bishop, retired just a year or two ago. He tends to be deeply irritating to literalists and other dogmatists (sort of a parallel there with some other fellow, a long time ago).

This brief article of his is representative of his thrust against substitutionary atonement. To pick just one particularly on quote:

Human life was not created good only to fall into sin, necessitating a divine rescue that culminated on the cross of Calvary, as the traditional Christian myth asserts. Human life rather has evolved through millions of years of evolutionary history leaving us not just incomplete, but distorted by that struggle to survive. We are not fallen angels, but emerging beings. We are a work in progress, constantly victimized by the unfinished nature of our humanity.

Not victimized by fallen grace, by Original Sin of some original perfection lost. Growing pains; the life of the Christ not as some anthropomorphic Passover lamb, but as an uncompromising beacon and challenge to rise and progress in that unfinished work.

(As an aside, I’ll give a quiet shout out to Polycarp, who’s largely responsible for Spong entering my to-read list some time back.)

[dreamer]

I think erislover did a fine job of explaining.

quote:

I will not stop sharing what I believe to be his truth and love for humanity

quote:

I was reminded how, though I give him all my love and devotion, I do not have the smallest amount of understanding of his mysteries or his ways

God’s truth and love for humanity compared to understanding why he does what he does are not the same thing. I’m not confused RedFury, are you still?

[MrVisible]

*Originally posted by erislover *
**Well, Red, of course you get to work every morning (assuming you work, of course), but I don’t know which way or exactly how your car operates. God didn’t leave it to really explain his workings, only that he felt this and that way etc.

I can take a beginner’s course in auto mechanics, and get a better understanding. I can go to vocational college, and get to be an expert on the subject, and with practice, I can get to the point where I understand every single action and reaction that takes place in a vehicular system. I can even design and build my own car, if I so choose. There is no mystery at the center of automotive engineering.

This is not the case with any god I know of.

[dreamer]

So, your values are completely detatched from your religion, then? Your religion has no impact whatsoever on these values?

MrVisible - I had values before I had God in my life. As far as I can tell not everyone who calls themself a Christian has the same values as the next guy. I’m confused as what you’re trying to get at here.

[MrVisible]

What I’m trying to get at, dreamer, is this: saying that a few million Christians just happen to have the same values, and are trying to impose those on the country, but that it’s just coincidence that those values are the ones taught by the Christian church seems pretty absurd. Wouldn’t you agree?

Do you really intend to deny that Christians are trying to get legislation passed based on values rooted in Christianity?

[erislover]

It is as if God is speaking to me!

Do you really intend to deny that Christians are trying to get legislation passed based on values rooted in Christianity?

Well, what would it matter if they were? Is the fact that they source their values from a religion somehow damning to the values? As if, murder is illegal, so long as some God didn’t tell you so.

And in the realm of disagreement we have split churches, different faiths and lack thereof, and of course in the context you discuss different political parties.

Values come from somewhere, whether we make them up or we read them out of a book or we get them through honest-to-god spiritual intervention, wherein lies the difference?

I remember tossing a quibble or two back and forth with Jodi on the topic of whether “Christians” denoted a proper group of individuals with certain values. Unfortunately the results of that are lost to my memory so I cannot recall if I was swayed to my current opinion or whether I stand fast on what I used to hold true, but on one hand it is easy to assert that Christians are in some ways a proper group with some somewhat specific values they share, but as with any group, how the individuals practice, share, and otherwise utilize these values offer us amazing differences.

I, too, hate Christianity as it exists in popularized form, and as some fundies and some other “regular” Christians (see how I feel compelled to put that in quotes? Not a group proper) practice their system. But on the whole, if all Christians did was try to get legislation passed which corresponded in a general way to the [disputable] teachings of Christ, I wouldn’t be surprised to find all sorts of non-christians agreeing with the legislature. And I would say that about most relgions.

And, sure, why shouldn’t Christians be able to band up and try to impose some other forms of legislation that don’t directly conflict with the constitution? It is as if the very notion of their Christianity somehow lessens the value of their values in some way.

I think it is fair to say that Christians are as specific of a group as atheists are. Are there beliefs we can say that all atheists have (in the general, non-inclusive case)? Sure. Are these values somehow more proper in terms of getting legislation passed? By whose system of valuation?

Leave it for open discourse on the specific values. As for ramming actual Christianity down your throat, well, I have to put up with welfare, too, which is also supposed to be in my best interest in some vaguely mystical and non-specific way.

[grendel72]

Certainly their values are valid no matter where they derive from.

Those of us who disagree with those values are compelled to point out that the source of those values is bad when those values are forced on us.

The question of whether values derive from religion was started by dreamer questioning why we are interested. If Buddhists were trying to force their values on us in this country, this thread would be questioning “is Buddha evil?”

[MrVisible]

I would go into a long diatribe here, but grendel72 has made that entirely unnecessary. Just put me down as having said what grenel said, only less elegantly.

[JerseyDiamond]

Hi Vanilla, how are you?
‘** a bit of a hijack**’
Man oh man. The problem is that some take a few verses and say, " Hah, see I told you, I told you, He’s a mean mean God".
When is that last time you actually read the Bible to understand it. If you read it from Genesis to Revelation without an indepth study, then how would you expect to understand it fully.
All things in the Bible connect and in order to know that you need to study it. Same words have different meanings and in order to know that you would need to do a study. Some things are literal and some things are symbolic, not only would you need to study but you would also have to use common sense. I am sorry, but it drives me crazy when people start bashing what they don’t know what they are talking about. They assume instead of learning about it. You need to do a real study. Not just by hearing what others say, but on your own.
MrVisible, when is the last time you went to a Bible teaching Church to learn anything about the Bible and God. Did you go to laugh at all the unenlightened people or did you go to understand. If you go in not caring you will be blind.

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Sorry to break the bad news to you, but Christians are to Spread the good news to everyone. Yes, even you, so you will have had the chance to have everlasting life and peace if you so choose. If anyone thinks that Hell is like earth, they are in for a rude awakening. You are not even capable of imagining how horrific it will be.
Please tell me people, how exactly is Christianity ruining you lives?
You say we have no proof. If proof is something that is tangible or visible then where is your proof for black holes. Is it because a scientist said so? I have proof of God everyday and all around me. Faith is a part of it, but when you have God, oh boy is He present. ‘end of hijack’

[JerseyDiamond]

sorry if my post is a little messy, I am in a bit of a rush… JD

[dreamer]

See, now I’m confused here (yet again). Are we talking about God being evil or are we talking about Christians being evil? Or, are we talking about Christians taking their values and forcing them on society? (which is considered evil)

Are you saying because Christians value God’s teachings which in turn become their values, that they are somehow responsible for the way in which God acts? Are we enabling evil because we follow God, whom you have declared evil?

Something that is evil to you could quite possibly considered not evil to me and vice-versa so what are we talking about here?

[MrVisible]

Yeah, JerseyDiamond, I suppose only reading three different versions of the bible makes me unqualified to speak as to the nature of God. How many times do I have to read it to be able to have a valid opinion? How many tortuous explanations would I have to endure before my opinion that it’s a bewilderingly useless book on which to base a philosophy would count?

Since you’ve obviously passed that mark already, tell us why we should worship a thuggish, morally reprehensible deity, aside from the whole “worship him or he’ll torment you eternally” extortionist angle?

[erislover]

grendel
[re: Buddha] Yeah, but that could be answered quickly. “Mu.”

But, let’s be clear. Let us say that Christians in general have dervievd their fundamental values from Christianity, which is to say, from God. In such a case, the answer to the question is: “Of course not. God wouldn’t declare himself evil. And, furthermore, has already defined himself as good.”

Then you [non-specific you, no one actually said anything like this] say, “But god killed people with flaming locusts and shitstorms so he can’t be good.” Well, that is not playing the value game correctly. God has instructed us how to live, and God does things. Now, why should we conflate the two? As if the dealth penalty was a contradiction by virtue of the illegality of murder alone. God judges those things, let him decide what he is going to do. He has told us what to do, and in some cases, guides the lives of his followers in mysterious and possibly subtle ways when they seek his advice or whatever (hell, I don’t know).

It is trivial to use God against himself when you already don’t believe in the absolute nature of him. But who are we proving anything to in that case? You want to attack the Christian God, but on your terms. Now, what sense is in that, other than to affirm what you already knew or believed anyway?

Let’s be plain. Here is a system of values, {X}. According to element X[sub]4[/sub], God is clearly evil. Case closed. Or are you hoping to reduce all of Christianity/Judiasm to absurdity by using God against himself?

“No loving god would kill millions of people.” Well, that clearly strikes us as an apparent absurdity. But then, when has god commanded us to flood the earth ourselves?

[erislover]

By which it might not be clear: why are you willing to accept the bible’s account of these events but not the nature of the being which caused them?

[RedFury]

when you were a child you didn’t understand why your parents commanded or offered this or that, but you of course knew what they commanded or offered

Me? Not a clue. I hear I put my parents through hell.

dreamer

We can go around this as many times as you’d like – to no avail. But positing you can understand any facet of an unidentifiable supernatural entitity is…well, religion, not reason. And to try to derive a moral code from something you can’t possibly know anything about, is absurd to the extreme.

And if that’s not bad enough, what really ends up happening is that some self-assigned ‘moral arbiter’ who claims to regularly communicates with this being, ends up telling his flock (gotta love that word) what is and isn’t ‘moral.’

Sad thing is, it reads like a movie script…but we are all in it!

[dreamer]

Sad thing is, it reads like a movie script…but we are all in it!

Well I for one am glad I know the ending (and the director).

[grendel72]

But God is evil by his own values.
Is there any commandment he hasn’t broken? Other than the first one, of course, since he apparently just can’t get enough of himself.

[Soup_du_jour]

I hardly believe God covets his neighbor’s house…

But I may just be missing something.

Oh, and Drastic, that OP-ed by the bishop was quite interesting. I might have to read more.

Thanks much, Drastic.
(And by extention, Polycarp!)

[Squish]

Soup, yeah, it is a generalization, but may I respectfully point out that you seem to be in the minority among US Christians? There are laws against “sodomy,” why? Because the Bible says “sodomy” is bad. There was and is a massive ongoing fight (including murders) over legalized abortion and although not all pro-life supporters are Christian, a great many are. The shocking sight of our elected representatives massing on the steps of the Capitol to support an unconstitutional pledge is clearly derived from a Christian-driven worldview.

JerseyDiamon, you make the mistaken assumption that the posters on this board and in this thread engage in debate ignorantly. I, for one, am the granddaughter of an Orthodox priest and was raised in the Lutheran church. I have read and studied the Bible, the Lutheran catechism, both varieties of the creed, and a respectable amount of Christian history. Also, like MrO, I’m quite fond of studying comparative religions. You wrote:

Sorry to break the bad news to you, but Christians are to Spread the good news to everyone.

And you believe that I have no right to refuse your equivalent of junk mail?

**If anyone thinks that Hell is like earth, they are in for a rude awakening. You are not even capable of imagining how horrific it will be. **

Uh, you’re rather proving the point that God is evil, you know. How can a loving and benevolent God condemn his creations to this horrific place of eternal punishment?

dreamer said:

Are we enabling evil because we follow God, whom you have declared evil?

Were those who followed Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin and the like–those who did so by choice and belief, not through fear–enabling evil? You betcha booty they were.

Erislover:

Is the fact that they source their values from a religion somehow damning to the values? As if, murder is illegal, so long as some God didn’t tell you so.

I think we agree that there are some values that are, and have been, nearly universal (i.e., murder is bad, therefore murder should be illegal). Where values stem solely from the Bible, are implemented by the government, and impinge upon the lives of non-Christians, there’s the rub. Gee, suppose I’d like to get mail on Sunday? Suppose I think what two consenting adults do in privacy is their own business?