Very simple: Someone suffers damnation for eternity because they deny TRUTH with a capital “T”. Clearly, if TRUTH really does have a capitol “T”; then the idea of any being spending an eternity in damnation of their own free-will is impossible. They are being forced to stay there against the nature of what intelligence and free-will ultimately seeks. What is it that’s keeping them there? The fact that the J-C God does not actualy possess TRUTH with a capitol “T”; and requires that the people who suggest a deeper truth from their very existence; be made to suffer, rather then be put back to the eternal rest from which they were raped from by him. We are being used as junk resource to give this God a circular process of self-glorification; that would collapse if he hadn’t realized in time that he might have to actually learn something if humans eat fruit from the tree of eternal life. Eternity is a long time to avoid answering some very serious questions about eternal damnation.
The idea that a being who embodies Truth would bother to write or inspire a book about truth in their own name is not possible.
They fundamentally have NO REASON to do it; which means that if they DID do it; the only purpose is for counter-intelligence and control (which speaks of a corrupt truth). Looking purely from a motive perspective; Lucifer has 100% motivation to write the Bible; God has ZERO. How could one be so presumptuous as to imagine that the MASTER OF DECEPTION did not write the Bible? To the degree one underestimates the MASTER OF DECEPTION, one is fundamentally DECIEVED. Convincing someone that an existant being doesn’t exist is NOT the greatest trick that can be pulled. The greatest trick that can be pulled, is convincing someone that a non-existant being DOES exist; it is in fact the very definition of trickery, the very embodyment of it. What better way to steer someone away from an always WIDE open door of unconditional love through infinite understanding; then to tell them that it is the gate of a place that does not actually exist. If you’re metaphorically staning in line to the ‘gates of heaven’ and watch Charles Manson enter (remember who he is etc…); you would realize that THIS is NOT heaven! At that point, the metaphorical flaming sword of “judgement” (as in the last judgement) that guards the fruit to the tree of immortality; has worked. You, of your own judgements walked away from God of your own free-will; through the mechanism of deception.
Why would a person even HUMOR the idea that the being of greatest truth; the very being who embodies the truth that ALL intelligence seeks and WILL find; would EVER need to write a book? a.) How can you write yourself?!! b.) Even if you could, what’s the point; you’re already THERE; immutible, you do not NEED to be proven, you already ARE proven. It’s completely non-sensical to imagine that the greatest conception of universal truth would write anything; unless their truth was not absolute, and as a result needs to convert people to it through mis-direction (how do magic tricks work? Duh!). We already know from the very existence of Satan in the Bible (eternal lord of damnation) that God does not possess a universal truth. Y’know; maybe the book wasn’t actually written by God…
Good point, Justhink, but I do have to bring up another point, and that is that too many people confuse the Lucifer/Satan of John Milton and popular Christianity with the Satan of the Bible. We think we know all about how and why Lucifer fell, about his revolt against God–but this revolt is mentioned only in Revelations 12, and then not in any depth or detail. In most of the Bible Satan is the accuser, the “esteemed counsel for the prosecution,” if you will, with God sitting as the presiding judge. Even in the Gospels, Satan’s temptation of Christ is fulfilling his traditional role–the same role he played with Job.
Now, is this the case? Here I would like a bibical citation which demonstrates that the values God sets down for us are also the values by which God should judge himself. Or anywhere where God indicates how he does (or should or could) judge himself.
Justhink, I believe it is commonly accepted the Bible was written by man divinely inspired (in most cases) or giving accounts of divinity in others.
As if I should reject Plato by the very virtue of having given form to his ideas in language? I am not sure I can accept that. Even someone who is absolutely convinced they are right writes down those truths (or “truths” or TRUTHS) in order to share with others. Are we to say that by these writings’ very existence the person must be wrong?
It seems a weak contraditction to assume that the being that gave us will wouldn’t have to leave directions for how to choose the correct path.
Jesus fits in wonderfully as a counter-intelligence entity in this book. My favorite is his “The time is now” speech! I’ll transcribe it for you:
"The time is now! Don’t wait, just do! Truth doesn’t work like that; don’t think about it, just do what I say, you won’t figure out anything by thinking about it. This window to immortality doesn’t last long!! DO IT NOW OR ETERNAL DANMNATION!! DON’T THINK, JUST DO>>>>>>>>>>>> NOWWWWWWW , JUST DO IT, NOW!!
ARGGGGGGHHHHHH!!! STOP THINKING!! THE TIME IS NOW!!
NOW OR NEVER; ETERNAL HELL OR ETERNAL BLISS – SH!T YOU’re THI*NKING STOOOPPPPPP THINKING!! NOT THINKING!!! DOO, PLEASE DO; YOU CAN TRUST ONLY ME, I AM THE MERCIFUL SAVIOR; TRUST ME _DON’T THINK!!!!!, REMEBER ME? JESUS? YEAH!!! THAT’S ME!!! PLEASE FOR YOUR SAKE!!, THE SAKE OF YOUR ETERNAL SOUL!!, THE SAKE OF YOUR RELATIVES ON THE OTHER SIDE!!, THE SAKE OF THE UNIVERSAL CAUSE OF GOOD, YES YOU WILL HAVE MEANING, JUST DO IT NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!! DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO. DON’T THINK, JUST DO.
C’MON, THE CLOCK IS TICKING… PFFFFT!!! YOU IDIOT BUH, BYE! YOU LOST YOUR ETERNAL SOUL, CONGRAULATIONS MORON, WAY TO BE INDECISIVE! OH YEAH? HMMM… I GUESS I CAN LET YOU IN, YOU SEEM LIKE A GO GETTER - ANY LONGER THOUGH AND IT’D HAVE BEEN TOO LATE!!!
LET’S GO! STEP ON IT! WE HAVE ETERNAL BLISS AND THE HEAVENLY WAR AHEAD - YOU’LL BE GLAD YOU TRUSTED ME!"
Hitler killed millions of Jews. The God of the fundamentalist christians would have all jews suffer for all of eternity.
Hitler was EVIL, but not quite up to the standards of God.
Well, if God could know everything there was to know, and human beings have free will, then one thing that cannot be known is whether or not a human being will do a particular thing. Like, say, choose good over evil. Especially if he does not have a means to discern the two. Like, say, a book of some sort, a guide to life.
Apart from that, it seems to me that Justhink is disregarding his own assumptions to make his point.
So which is it. Is or is there no reason to write down ultimate truth? Again the thought strikes me: me, with limited knowledge of truth, coming up with a notion of what it must be like to have all truth.
Meanwhile, back to poor ol’ Satan, God’s scapegoat:
-Satan works for God
-If Satan is here to destroy the world and/or to do evil to man
-Then isn’t it God’s plan to destroy the world and do evil to man?
I understand that you don’t sign up to the bible being the literal word of god, surely something we agree on. I also feel that some of the more fundamentalist christians on the board would vehemently disagree with you on this. Care to comment, Dreamer?
Regardless, if the bible isn’t divinely inspired then how does one decide which parts to follow and which parts to ignore? Does this not lead to, effectively, religious anarchy?
My personal belief is that people can be decent, caring individuals without the threat of eternal damnation. That being the case, why bother with religion at all?
Yeah, and by virtue of the fact that you won’t even try to explain how you can follow a god whose evil nature is so evident, it seems you have already made your choice as well.
You’d do well to follow your own advice; keep in mind that the Grail knight was advising the German guy to “choose wisely” and avoid the flashy, sparkly, jewel-encrusted grail, and to instead seek out the less-obvious, plainer cup. Your religion looks pretty flashy to me. What are you choosing?
Well yes, I guess it might lead to a few squabbles. Inquisition anyone? S
The religious are more constrained in the methods they can use to stamp out those evil heretics these days. It is better to be on the receiving end of legislation than an axe though so I guess things are improving.
This is hands-down the smartest and most sensible thing I’ve ever heard a Christian on these boards say pertaining to that topic. For about 300 years after Jesus’ death, there were Christians but no Bible. It’s a compiled anthology of writings. Hmmmm, how about that? I guess it was fortunate for Martin Luther that nobody thought that one through too clearly.
erislover wrote: “It seems a weak contraditction to assume that the being that gave us will wouldn’t have to leave directions for how to choose the correct path.”
Do you really think that a sentient being who lived for eternity would somehow manage to MISS absolute truth? Don’t you think people are )curious, like to communicate, ask questions? Give answers, give second chances? There are SO many people on this earth who display moral and behavioral consistancy that is lightyears beyond the structures available at the time of the Bible. God doesn’t need to say anything, God IS that truth; we’re talking an ETERNITY of being and communicating with other beings on the nature of the universe.
The very thought that we couldn’t or wouldn’t figure it out is so sickening as to invalidate the entire purpose (if there indeed is one) of existence. What is it about GODS truth, that is so hard to comprehend that we must (like a pressuring salesman in my Jesus transcription) DO IT RIGHT NOW in this puny finite life, and suffer ETERNAL damnation for something that would be obvious to us in the scope of eternity? Is Gods truth really that hollow? (hear no evil, see no evil … just get out of my way). Nobody in their right mind would suffer eternal damnation; unless they did it for moral reasons, like: to become a martyr greater than God! (i.e. Like killing little babies and sending them straight to heaven at the expense of your own eternal soul - something GOD clearly doesn’t have the morality to do! He could have killed himself and not sent BILLIONS of souls to eternal damnation!) Quite simply: We are more morally and cognitively advanced the the God depicted in the Bible; our age of being knows more about morality than anyone did when the Bible was written; to such a vast degree as to almost make the entire Bible evil from cover to cover. It’s the most pointless endevour of practice in faith concievable; clearly, the most moral thing to do in this situation is to not have created the “heavens and the earth” at all. In this sense we can look at God (not as pure Evil), but severely undeveloped in a cognitive sense. Human beings have gone through 2000 years of cognitive development since the Bible was written: SERIOUSLY!
Squish - Satan is referred to as the Master of deception consistantly in the Bible
Damnation is referred to, as being eternal, consistantly in the Bible. I am well aware of Milton’s “Paradise Lost”.
You must never have read the Divine Comedy. I suspect there will be plenty of Christians in hell - exactly how many and which ones depend on what kind of God it is.
Reminds me of a book from 1920 or so called “Heavenly Discourses,” set in heaven with a cast including Mark Twain and Robert Ingersoll. Billy Sunday, the preacher, dies and goes to heaven, then is sent to monkey heaven after yabbering too much.
Cite, please?