God doesn’t lie.
God has never threatened me
He socializes
JerseyDiamond, I was responding to your assertion that some of us here hadn’t read or studied the Bible. Your “cookbook” analogy has nothing to do with your assertion nor my response to it.
Jersey, vanilla, dreamer–would any of you please respond to the fact that God has, by the evidence in the Bible, caused horrible suffering to innocent people? I’d really like to know how you reconcile those actions with your idea of a loving God.
Also, vanilla, you say that God doesn’t lie. Does Satan lie? Is Satan not working for, and subject to God? Therefore, how is it that God does not lie, does not practice deception? (Remember, the supposed ‘revolt’ hasn’t happened yet, as least it hasn’t if you take Revelations to be an account of future events.)
JerseyDiamond, I was responding to your assertion that some of us here hadn’t read or studied the Bible. Your “cookbook” analogy has nothing to do with your assertion nor my response to it.
Jersey, vanilla, dreamer–would any of you please respond to the fact that God has, by the evidence in the Bible, caused horrible suffering to innocent people? I’d really like to know how you reconcile those actions with your idea of a loving God.
Also, vanilla, you say that God doesn’t lie. Does Satan lie? Is Satan not working for, and subject to God? Therefore, how is it that God does not lie, does not practice deception? (Remember, the supposed ‘revolt’ hasn’t happened yet, as least it hasn’t if you take Revelations to be an account of future events.)
The discussion so far…
- Is God, as described in the bible evil because he touts vicious, reprehensible behavior as proof of his glory?
- No, you can’t impose earthly morals and ethics on God.
- Isn’t the whole hell thing a coercive and evil way to go about things?
- No, because you make the choice not to love God.
- Even assuming arguendo that the bible is accurate, and such a choice in the absence of proof is fair, why should we worship a god we can’t understand?
- Because he loves us.
- How can we possibly know that God love us if we can’t understand him?
- Because Jesus died for our sins.
- Why is dying such a bad thing for a deity?
- Because, even for God, allowing his innocent son to be tortured and killed is a sacrifice.
- If God considers the torture and killing of his son a “sacrifice” why has God not only directly contributed to the torturing and killing of other innocents but touts such behavior as proof of his glory?
- You can’t impose earthly morals and ethics on God.
- Don’t you see any contradiction between 5 and 6?
- No.
And I think that’s where we currently stand.
Why not? How can something be evil when you or I do it, but not evil when god does it? That makes absolutely no sense.
A choice made under duress. If I ask someone how they feel about me, I think I might get a different answer if I am holding a loaded gun to their head when I ask.
He sure has a funny way of showing it. “Officer, I swear I fell down the stairs…”
Why should anyone have to die for our sins? How can God guilt trip us over something that was his action.
“Allowing”? seems more like “forcing” to me.
See my response to point 1.
(Why am I always responding to remarks directed at MrVisible? He’s doing a fine job of responding himself; it’s just that the God-supporters seem to be igoring me here. Maybe my handle should be MrInvisible. One possibility is that my posts aren’t worthy of a response. Another is that you don’t have a response. Perhaps it’s a self-defense mechanism, but I’m thinking it’s the latter.)
Anyway, JerseyDiamond, what is the evidence that God loves me and gave his son to die for me (skipping for now the question of whether that’s a moral thing to do)? The Bible? Okay. Is there any non-hearsay evidence? I’ve tried to believe the Bible, and I can’t. I even read it for years after being told that the “power” of The Word would wash over me and convince me, if I just kept reading. I did. I still read it sometimes. I still don’t believe it.
I mentioned on page one that I have no choice about what I believe, and I didn’t see any explanations or counter-arguments. Given that I don’t and can’t believe the Bible, where is the evidence that God a) exists, b) loves me, c) knows me, d) sacrificed anything for me, or e) is good?
Do you think you could elaborate on this a little bit? Hell is a place where ‘sinners’ go to face horrible torture and unimaginable agony for the rest of eternity. As far as I understand, God says that we will all go to hell if we don’t believe in him, play by his rules and worship him unequivocally. Now, if him giving you that sort of choice is what you call love, fine. Just understand that I, and many others, call it a coercive and threatening appeal to force. I can, and will, never lover someone who threatens me with torture and pain.
I think evidence in favor of god is scarce, and I think evidence in favor of an benevolent god is in even shorter supply. Anyhow, here’s Pat Robertson (yes, I know, an extremist) take on one biblical massacre (you gotta love the man’s logic).
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/patframe.htm
(click the third link down in the main window)
Let’s look at some of the words of Christ.
Matthew
7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment…
Mark
16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luke
12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
From the Letters of the Apostles
2 Thessalonians
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2:11 …God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned …
Revelation
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Don’t ask me to elaborate, I was just doing the thread a service by summarizing the arguments up to now. If you read through the thread, its pretty clear I don’t get it either.
I really don’t think that summary represented either the tone of the thread, or its current positions, Pencil Pusher. I would much rather people read the thread, and draw their own conclusions from it; there’s a lot of information and nuance that got missed in your summary.
And, MrO, I’ve greatly admired your posts in this, and several other threads. Having several answers to a question posed here is one of the things that make this forum so great; it means the debates tend to be wide-ranging and comprehensive. And I always enjoy seeing your perspective on these issues, as well as the opinions of every other poster in the thread. It’s not a debate if we all agree, and it’s not fun if we all wait our turns.
Well, thanks, MrV. I guess the “God is good” crowd just doesn’t have much to say to me. That isn’t usually such a bad thing, but I am really curious about some of the questions I’ve asked them.
Looks like the “God is good” crowd doesn’t seem to have much to say at all… at least, they’re not answering any of my questions.
So I declare that even though there isn’t a God, if there was, he’s certainly a big meanie! 
That’s true–my questions aren’t the only ones being ignored. Here are some issues from earlier in this thread that I would sincerely like to see addressed.
These are not related, of course. Squish’s request is based on what’s in the Bible; my question is a little broader. They are both of intense interest to me, and I’d welcome a response from any of believers we have on board.
I’m aware that the tone here is a little challenging, but I think the discussion has remained fairly polite so far. I mention this because it occurs to me that people may not be answering because they want to avoid a fight. I’m honestly not trying to pick a fight here; I truly want to hear how Christians deal with these issues. But though I don’t want to pick a fight, I also don’t want this thread to fade away because you don’t have any answers. If you do, I’d like to hear them. If not, I hope you have the courage to think of the implications of that.
Damn are y’all still bustin’ each others chops over this!
It’s real simple: (If God exists>God created evil>God is responsible for evil)
Does this make God good or evil? No He’s both
OK:)
MrVisible, et al, I think this will lead my position to be stated more clearly.
As should be implicit, allow me to explicitly tack on “to me” after “big meanie”. And then let me say: you say this about a hypothetical being. Well, by waving my magic hypothetical wand, I see that this being has all knowledge that can be had. Presumably this would have to include all standards by which something can be judged. Including, shall we say, good and evil.
Your “to me” suddenly becomes very indicative of the worth of the statement that preceeded it, adn though I accept it in the world we agree we live in, I would be compelled to reject it in the hypothetical one in question by virtue of your limited placement in it. And for the same reasons would I be compelled to reject my own standards which would say the same thing.
any standard by which this:
is not evil, is a seriously fucked up standard.
The statement that “god can’t be judged by human standards” makes absolutely no sense.
To you.
I didn’t say he couldn’t be, but that such a judgment would not have the weight of an absolute authority behind it.
Morality is a real, tangible thing. Allowing claims to “absolute authority” to override what is observably right and wrong is foolish. Once again I must mention Fred Phelps- he sets himself up as an “absolute authority” of right and wrong, and his followers accept it. That doesn’t change the fact that he is an evil, worthless piece of shit.
The only valid moral judgment is to observe, and think for your self, and acknowledge that that which causes harm is evil.
Can someone explain, in simple terms since I’m apparently too damn stupid to understand, how God can be “beyond our judgment”? It makes absolutely no sense, and seems like a lame comeback.
erislover, the problem I’m running into with your position is that you’re only arguing some of the postulates of the J-C god. If we’re debating about a world in which this god is real, then we’re debating all of it, as understood by the religions and factions in question. The god you’re arguing seems to have only the attributes of omniscience, omnipotence, and incomprehensibility. While that does sound like an interesting deity, it’s not the one we’re discussing.
In this mythology, Man has knowledge of good and evil*. It’s the reason God got miffed at us, it’s the original sin, the First Big Falling Out. We didn’t eat from the Tree of Relative Morality, we ate from the real thing; knowledge of good and evil. Man can judge for himself.
Working from the premiss that the god of the Bible exists, Man has the ability to judge God. Working from the premiss that god doesn’t exist, humans have the ability to judge this fictional character.
MrO and Squish, the thing is that when you ask the same questions over and over again and someone answers you to the best of their knowledge, it’s not satisfactory to you, and it probably never will be.
First of all why would someone even bother answering your questions if you state before you ask them that you “don’t and can’t” believe the bible? We could sit here all day and point out scripture after scripture (which has already been done) and it still won’t be evidence enough for you. Obviously we aern’t going to have anything supernatural to show you, so I’m not sure what you want.
Why do you want to know what we think? Why are you so interested if you think what we believe is hogwash?