Is the J-C God evil?

MrVisible:

I think this is part of the point eris is making. You are choosing to focus on particular parts of the bible, many of which are not always interpreted as literal, and on the idea of hell as eternal torture, when there are other possible interpretations, such as hell simply being the absence of god. You are choosing to ignore the fact that the bible also says that god is good, all-powerful, and loves you. Why do you accept the parts of the bible that tend to make god look bad, but not the parts that clearly state that god is good? If the bible is true, god is good, because the bible says so. If god is not good, the bible cannot be true. Perhaps the argument you are actually making is that the bible is contradictory and therefore cannot be true, but that is a different argument than saying that the bible is true but god is evil.

grendel72:

So you accept that god is beyond your understanding, but you want to judge god like you would a fellow human? Of course you can judge god, but that doesn’t mean your judgement is particularly important given that he is infinitely greater than you and has a plan that you are unaware of. I personally do not find the god described in the bible worthy of praise, but if it was proven that he existed I would have to reconsider.

As for Satan, I think Dostoyevsky described him best:

“I think if the devil doesn’t exist, then man has created him. He has created him in his own image and likeness.”

There are some interesting assumptions coming out in this discussion.

Consider, if you will, that in most “God” threads people bring forward the proposition, which I think valid, that there is very little objective phenomenological evidence for the existence of God. (The alternative proposition, that all Creation is evidence of Him, is not objective evidence on this view – a premise I can see as legitimate.)

One primary argument advanced here, with some reason behind it, is that God, having the power to intervene to cause good or prevent evil, fails to do so, and is therefore at fault for the absence of good and existence of evil.

But it is by no means a universally held premise of moral behavior that every person with the ability to cause good or prevent evil therefore has the obligation to do so. If I sold all my worldly goods and gave the money to an appropriate charity, I could probably prevent a few famine-struck individuals from starving for a few days, but I doubt anyone seriously suggests I am obliged to do so.

God, however, is held to a different standard here, in that He is seen to be obliged to do precisely that.

However, such arguments usually assume the characteristics of God as defined by theologians, including omnipotence and omniscience. But omniscience ineluctibly leads to the conclusion that He must know the long-term consequences of events to a greater extent than we do, or even than we can.

Hence, if there is a God and He has the power to act, either He must be judged by the human standard or allowed the judgment to act as His omniscience calls for. This does not mean that we cannot question why He would permit a woman to die in agony; it means that we need to allow that He must have had reasons. Though this sounds like a retreat to “mysterious ways,” it is merely a call to be consistent in one’s arguments – either He exists with the power and knowledge to decide the ultimately right thing to do or He does not.

Also, the Problem of Evil arises from the ability of humans to make choices – even natural disasters, diseases, etc., result from human choice in that one chooses the negligible risk of living in the 500-year flood plain, on the slopes of the “extinct” volcano, in a pleasant climate that rarely (but not never) has hurricanes, etc. It would be possible for God to make a world in which evil did not exist – but at the cost of making whatever He populated that world with into robots, unable to choose anything but the good. I had personally prefer to live in this imperfect world and have the dignity of making choices and living with their consequences.

The other prime argument advanced is based on Scripture. And while the thread has featured Bibliocentric Christians vs. those who point out the evils Scripture attributes to God, it’s worth noting that the majority of Christians do not see the Bible as a literally-true verbatim-inspired document.

And the human characteristic of finding a scapegoat on which to foist off the blame for one’s actions when challenged is universal. Having babysat my three grandchildren for the past couple of weeks has underscored the commonness of this trait.

In short, God is pointed out as to blame for various evil events by the human writers of Scripture or the figures whom they describe – but it is as easy to believe that Joshua was guilty of the genocide of the Amelekites and blamed God for it as that He commanded it.

I’m not sure how accurate that is. Maybe there were one or two posts that advanced that argument, but I don’t remember them. In fact, I believe most people have purposefully stayed away from that argument.

The main thrust the God-is-evil-according-to-the-bible crowd is that God, himself, is personally responsible for killing off people who’s only apparent crime was not being born into the right side of a conflict. Stories of dashing children’s heads open on rocks are told to tout God’s glory and power. Similarly there are stories of plagues that kill the firstborn child of any non-Jew, regardless of culpability. These are what the God-is-evil-according-to-the-bible crowd is pointing to.

Maybe I missed a post here and there. I admit, I didn’t go back and read through the thread. However, my guess is that your post answers a question that was not asked.

Having had a couple days to think about this, toiling in the process; presumably because of God =), I have a few comments:

Squish; The quotes on lies and decption in regard to Satan will default to you until I get home to my Bible collection (currently 800 miles away). At which point, it may show that you are indeed correct, and I have been another victim of the Milton fallacy!

RexDart: I do write like a moron, much of it is USENET habit and that I just write like a moron. I have not had much success, and thus motivation to learn the ins and outs of emoting on this board. Sorry for the caps, and writing like a moron. Though, to my redemption, if I actually proof-read or even spell check somethin I bang up; chances are that my ‘perfectionism’ will take over and the reply will not see the light of day for many months to come… part of it is just “getting it out there”. I have been known to bang out 40,000 plus words instantly for a reply and realize that “I can’t post that!”; and let time try to narrow it down a bit for me…

In general point to this thread; it’s almost a red herring in and of itself… What exactly is evil? Until that term is properly agreed upon; it is safe to assume that this ‘debate’ will not gather unanimous resolution until the process itself causes everyone to take a step back and discuss the definition of ‘Evil’ or ‘Good’.

I personally will add this: I think that it is more productive to discuss possible and impossible in terms of the Biblical God.

For example; besides God being omni-potent and omni-scient (which is IMO, IMPOSSIBLE!) in regards to how we are treated, in that same breath, God is also aknowledged as being eternal.
Excuse me for making the point, that clearly God has the time to act in a consistant means between speech and behavior.

We can state with positiveness that something must be different for any of this to be occurring. If everything is the same; than nothing we do makes any sense, including God. We do have some very basic axioms, I believe we can all agree upon.

-Justhink

Hopefully a huge post is not in order for this to sink in. I wanted to add that I believe it can be proven that any human being who has committed suicide, has knowledge of something God does not. Whether you think that knowledge is ‘right or wrong’ does not negate the fact that it is knowledge that God is incapable of having through fear, determinism or impotence. I also think it can be proven that God fears peers, and/or peer relationships and that God fundamentally denies aspects of reality that are present, in order to ‘possess’ these claimed omni-states; that the omni-states can only be a result of refusing to observe, converse with, act towards or tell about anything that is evidenced in the structure of reality to dissolve his concept of these states into what is clearly a more expansive definition of truth observed in reality. It is to say, that all of these states are contrived states in the Biblical God; as can be evidenced by very simple observations of reality as a whole.

-Justhink

Some have made that argument; the more prevalent argument is that the actions of the god described in the bible are, to a large degree, actively evil.

It does not necessitate that we assume those reasons are benevolent. I can just as easily assume the existence of a malevolent omniscient god as I can that of a benevolent one.

So, where should we have chosen to live, that it’s completely safe? Is there an area of the planet with no hazards? What kind of choice is God really offering me here? Would you like to die by drowning, by lightning strike, by fire?

I understand that. My problem with it is that the interpretations of the Bible which are seen most often are the ones that cast God in his best light. All the bad things get attributed to humanity, and the credit for the good goes to God. It’s a very optimistic approach to the Bible, and I’m sure that I’d much rather believe in your god, Polycarp, than that of the fire breathing fundies. But either one is just as plausible, based on the literature that you both have in common.

Argghh… one other point:

If God is = incomprehensibility, then discussing God in any way shape or form is = not understanding God; thus being led astray, thus going to hell. As I have noted in other threads, there is no logically consistant meaning towards discussing the Biblical God in the course of ones life, if one is to truly assume the existence of such a being. You can either prove the impossibility of God, or at a minimum, collapse all meaning of discussing that God. I have not discerned any logica system where it is not evidenced as counter-productive to discuss or think about the Biblical God in any way shape or form, if one is so inclined to believe in that God.
(as if what I think changes everything! =)

-Justhink

““Similarly there are stories of plagues that kill the firstborn child of any non-Jew, regardless of culpability. These are what the God-is-evil-according-to-the-bible crowd is pointing to.””

In a historical context of the time; this was most likely a propogndic mechanism. It was common amongst religions in the region to willingly sacrifice the first-born to your deity; aknowledging that the first creation is fundamentally theirs; it was actually considered unholy to keep the first-born in this sense, as you would be defiling the faith of purity in your God; it is basically the OT equivilent of being Abel instead of Cain; with a much deeper, complex and sophisticated symbolic expression than the Biblical expressions of this type of sacrifice. These sacrifices were secularized for capitolistic reasons. The Egypt massacre is very likely in reference to this phenomenon. By having your God STEAL the first born of your people, was a sign of outrageously arrogant and self-explanitory dominance. “I’m the new guy on the scene and I rule. What you think or what your will is, doesn’t matter, any questions?”

-Justhink

Ironically, I still contend that the most faithful person in the entire Bible was the pharoah of Egypt; his faith was greater than any of the Biblical Gods’ prophets IMO. Even when God cannibalized the first born (the symbolic creation of their most powerful deities) the Pharoah still held faith;; and was incidentally disgusted by the Hebrew God (recent evidence suggests that slaves were not used to build the pyramids; rather that the builders were tended to in a capitolistic sense, and given quite nice burials.)

-Justhink

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by dreamer *
MrO and Squish, the thing is that when you ask the same questions over and over again and someone answers you to the best of their knowledge, it’s not satisfactory to you, and it probably never will be.
If you could refer me to a post in which you actually answered my question, I would be delighted. The fact is, you haven’t: as far as I can see, your only answers have been along the lines of “God loves us.” I haven’t seen any post where you’ve told us why, if God loves us, he does such horrible things.

Also, for about three or four threads now, you and I have been disagreeing on whether Satan works for God (that is, he is an employee who carries out his boss’ orders and/or wishes). I’ve presented Biblical evidence for my side; where is your evidence, whether it comes from the Bible, or any other studies (besides Milton, okay :slight_smile: )?

I think those of us who aren’t Christians are viewing this discussion as either a literary or (in my case) comparative religions exercise. I’ve studied comparative religions and discussion them many times; I can understand if perhaps you haven’t–and that’s not a put-down of you, it’s not a subject that everyone is interested in.

Polycarp (S/he Who is Always Worth Listening To :slight_smile: ), you said:

I do understand that many Christians do not take the Bible literally, but I doubt there are many who do not take it at least symbolically–and Joshua isn’t held up as a symbol of evil. Even so, that leaves us with the killing of the first-born of Egypt–who did that? I can certainly accept that the laws given in Leviticus may have been meaningful at that time, for that group of people and that they are no longer meaningful–but evaluating Scripture in context is not the same as picking-and-choosing which parts to believe. Is the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus literal, or symbolic? Lastly, if the Bible is not true, how can you base a religion on it?

Justhink–no offense to RexDart here–I have no problems reading your posts. I’m on mailing lists with dyslexics, people for whom English is a second language, and others who just don’t have any composition skills. I find your point that God is not omniscient and omnipotent interesting, but I would like you to tell me which religions regularly sacrificed their first-born?

:smack: Please forgive the coding errors and typos. :smack:

“”“Justhink–no offense to RexDart here–I have no problems reading your posts. I’m on mailing lists with dyslexics, people for whom English is a second language, and others who just don’t have any composition skills. I find your point that God is not omniscient and omnipotent interesting, but I would like you to tell me which religions regularly sacrificed their first-born?”"

I could care less how people type or emote or spell, I never have a problem reading it… That’s just us though =) I don’t have the religion reference available, but I believe (not positive) I came across it in the popular treatment of the three primary Biblical faiths released by Karen Armstrong. I just don’t have my resources here =(

-Justhink

I can do the resource thing for sure by early October…

-Justhink

I’m sorrySquish I don’t mean to sound rude, but there have been many posters in this thread who have tried to explain this. So like I said before there is nothing that’s going to prove it to you one way or the other and if there was anything that could do that, don’t you think someone would have posted that by now?

dreamer, could you give some samples of posts where this has been explained? All I can recall is variations on the “We cannot presume to understand God”; “God works in mysterious ways”; and “You have to have faith to understand”. If a better explanation has been offered, I missed it. I’ll go back through the thread, but I’d be interested in hearing what the explanation was, from your perspective.

Me too. :slight_smile:

So do you think the president of the US should be above the law of the land? If an entity, any entity, passes on rules it is rediculous to claim that it can’t be judged by those same rules.

Let me just add that I did read Deuteronomy 2:32 and I read before that and after and I tried to find out just exactly who “Sihon and all his army” were and why the Lord allowed the death and destruction of them, but there was no explanation that I could find. So there are mysteries yes, there are things we don’t understand, but to say that God is evil is just not something I can accept. He allows it so we may have a choice, he created Satan who became evil by his own choice, but he himself is not evil. He’s creator of the universe, if ever you believe that then you would see why some of us trust that he knows what he’s doing.

Yes. But here you might want to see that the ones who don’t agree with you can’t help but think He seems quite unfair and mean.
I doubt you can convince them, God would have to do that.:slight_smile:

The answers have been unsatisfactory, that’s right. We’re asking for answers that hold up to scrutiny.

**

True, quoting scripture will not convince one who doesn’t believe in scripture. Let’s go back another step, then: What is the evidence that the Bible is really the authoritative word of God, whether literal or symbolic?

**

A fair question; I wouldn’t blame you for not wanting to be the victim of Christian-baiting. I’m interested because I struggled with these same questions for so long as a Christian, and I too was unable to answer them. Did I miss something? I’m not actively resisting the truth; I’m trying hard to understand. If you see me as someone who might be brought back into the fold, so to speak, that’s fine too. Again, I’m not resisting.

I also want to understand what motivates Christians, because they control so much of the world that I live in.

Another reason is more academic. As I’ve said before, religion is fascinating to me, as a cultural phenomenon. Morality is important to me, and since much of the world bases its morality on religion, that too becomes important. Human nature is interesting to me, including all its heroic achievements as well as its foibles.

Finally, when Christians tell me that I must make the choice to believe in scripture or in God, I keep going back to the question of whether we are free to choose our beliefs. The reason for this is that I can’t choose. I don’t believe in Santa, and if I try, I feel like I’m pulling the wool over my own eyes. I feel like I’m pretending. It’s the same when I try to believe in God. If someone could teach me how to choose my beliefs, I’d be interested in learning.

I like to learn. That’s why I want to know what you think.