Is the mainstream Christianity belief in Hell supported by the Bible?

Great Debates
1

Interesting if: You like Biblical topics. If you’re atheist, you win this one right from start because Hell does not exist.
Ingredients: 99% my own words + reference to some old books. I used the Watchtower online library to find the historical references from the old books.
My position:

There’s no such thing as a fiery hell. The atheists are right on this one. Hell or punishment in afterlife is a common concept in Egyptian, Babylonian and many ancient religions. The Roman Catholic church simply gave it a paint job. And what a money maker/crowd controller it was!
My arguments:

Genesis 2:17 God warned Adam he could become mortal and die. Nothing more.

Genesis 3:19 God tells Adam he is dust and will return to dust. Nothing more.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 The dead are not conscious of anything at all.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 There is no activity or awareness in death. (Sheol)
Research on the words Hell, Sheol and Hades:

Also see: The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E. Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.
Job 14:13 Job, suffering pain and sickness asks God to protect or shelter him in Sheol.

**Psalms 146:3 and 4 ** The atheists are right on this, when you die you die.

Romans 6:7 and 23 Death releases us from sin, no punishment after that.

Question Would you punish your children by burning them *eternally *for whatever they did over a *limited *period of time?

Does that sound logical or even remotely fair? Does that fit with a God that claims to be Love? (compare Jeremiah 7:31)
Bonus material
The term Gehenna which has become synonymous with a fiery hell concept is merely a symbolic speech for total destruction or the death of something that is no good. In the valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem there was a pit with continual fire (phosporus or greek fire?) that was used to burn waste and also the bodies of criminals that had committed the worst crimes.

Not being buried was one of the worst things for a Jew and indicated people thought you were not eligible for resurrection.

Before that place was designated for waste disposal it had been used by some of Judah’s worst kings whom sacrificed their sons to false gods like Baal or Molech. (Google King Ahaz, King Manasseh, Topeth)

When Gehenna or the lake of fire is mentioned in Revelation it symbolizes the 2nd death, from which there is no resurrection. In other words final judgement.
It is also said in Revelation that Death and Hades would be thrown in to the lake of fire. Death is an abstract thing, a condition, so the statement is clearly symbolic for an ultimate end. (read Revelation 20)
WHAT THE HELL DID HELL DO FOR MANKIND?

**Money. ** Fact is that the scary concept of eternal torture made the church a lot of money. The biggest church on Earth sold absolutions at one point. These notes would forgive you sins committed or even future sins so you could pay to shorten your days in purgatory or buy dead relatives out of hell. (sick eh?) They made hella money!

This disgusting business was one of the reasons for the beginning of the Protestants breaking away from that other big church.

Power through fear. Telling people they’re going to burn in hell has for centuries been a tool of fear. (or should i say terror?) Some folk even like to scare children with it up to this day. This terror gave religious leaders a lot of leverage over their followers. (still) It’s a hell of a crowd controller.

End result. Instead of bringing people closer to God, the idea of hell has pushed them away from God. The whole idea is so disgusting and conflicting that many claim “hell” as the main reason they don’t want anything to do with God.
The idea paints God as very unreasonable to say the least.
So i guess Satan is hella pleased with Hell. But don’t believe the hype. There is no such thing.

2

If Christians believe that there is a Hell, then Hell is a Christian belief.

Next question?

3

<snipped by me for brevity>

That may be the JW position (and by extension yours) - it is clearly not what mainstream ‘Christianity’ believes.

4

Perhaps he meant to ask “Is the Christian belief in Hell supported by the Bible?”

5

No - he’ll eventually play the ‘no true christian but the JW’ card - but I agree that the question you’re asking would have been the way to play this.

6

Well, r4r-care to clarify your title?

7

Is the mainstream Christianity belief in Hell supported by the Bible?
Tadaaa… A newly improved and more accurate title brought to you by Czarcasm.
I could not have written it better. But i get by with a little help. Thanks.

8

I think that (a) and (b) are hilarious when you look at the JW organization over its history - disfellowshipping practices, the amount of money they make peddling bibles and literature door to door - one report I read (been some time agon) has them in the BILLIONS in land holdings alone.

They are no better - they just use “no hell” as a selling point - of course, you’re still seperated from god (but asleep), etc -

9

And the is still yes. The Bible will support pretty much anything you already believe if you look hard enough.

10

<mod hat on>

I’ll take that as a request. Thread title changed.

<mod hat off>

11

(Thanks Mod, it is a much better title. )

Peddling and holding billions in land… sigh… Your remark shows your level of awareness. So i will not answer on the peddling remark. I’m sure some other reader will help you with that one.
Holding billions of land? You mean that we have lots of places on the planet for the 8 million Witnesses to study and worship? Yeah, what of it? You don’t seem to know not all Kingdom Halls are owned or maintained by a kind of HQ but by local comittees.
And we are building more halls every week. We do have a mission you know and since our numbers are growing we will need to keep building.

Most of the numbers are published yearly in the year book wich anyone can download. It’s free Simster. As are all our other publications you might wanna read. You can download them all for free Simster.
Happy to oblige an old friend.

12

I’m not looking for an argument, but I am interested to know what you think of Luke 16:19 to 31 -

You may of course say that this is just a parable - a fictional tale used to illustrate some point or other, but in that case, isn’t it inconsistent with every other parable in the Bible? - they all deal with vineyards, fig trees, masters, servants, coins, lamps, birds, etc. All the other parables of Jesus are based on things that are real.

13

Quit calling me an ‘old friend’ and acting all sanctimonious - you may mean it sincerely, but it comes off insulting.

Now - So - The Watchtower Org (although split into lots of little orgs) as a whole has billions in land -the property in Brooklyn alone is on the market for a billion by itself - it also may surprise you, since the information is not usually available to the ‘rank and file’ that the Majority (if not all) of Kingdom hall builds are financed by the Watchtower (they issue a mortgage back to the congregation building the hall) - and this money is paid back by the congregation - after which, the hall is ‘deeded’ to the Watchtower org - if the congregation ever folds, teh Watchtower gets the propertly. Its been awhile since I discovered this info - if you really want it - I’ll try and dig up a cite for the practice.

Secondly - as to the ‘peddlers’ - thats what they do - they (you) go door to door ‘spreading the good news of the kingdom’ selling the Watchtower pubs - now - you wont’ call it ‘selling’, you’ll use weasel words like ‘placing’ and ‘donations are accepted’ - this is to get around those pesky requirements for solicitors and sales taxes, etc - Your organization was founded on sales of the “Studies in the Scriptures” and your founder even had his own snake oil that he attempted to sell. (‘Miracle Wheat’).
Whether or not there are materials available for ‘free’ on the internet is irrelevant - when you pick up books and Watchtowers at the hall, do you pay for them ? Do you buy the materials you take from the hall for ‘placement’? do you take the donations for those materials and bring it back to the org? Its money laundering - plain and simple.

What difference does this make? none, except that the Watchtower is in a ‘business’ just like the rest of Christianity - you just sell a diferent flavor of the same koolaid

All of this has absolutely nothing to do with your ‘prepared topic’, so I will end my hijack at this point.

14

If anyone wishes to discuss the validity, theology, wealth or any other aspect of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they are free to open a new thread to do so.

This thread addresses the origins and beliefs of various Christians regarding hell, (meaning that there may multiple valid answers regarding the statement of those beliefs), but it is not a thread to discuss (or attack) Jehovah’s Witnesses, per se.

[ /Moderating ]

15

SDMB Staff Report: Who Invented Hell?

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See also Diogenes the Cynic’s old thread Let’s talk about Hell

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(Thanks Measure for Measure and Thudlow for those posts. Very interesting!!)

Dear Simster,

Now as for the magazines or books i pick up, NO i do not buy them or pay for them on the spot none of that in any form. Back in the day we did pay for them as printing was more expensive and we had less members. These days we just hope anyone can give something for the cost when they can and when they feel like it. As you should know Simster, there is a small mail box on the wall often in the corner where anyone can put in something in private.

As many people don’t have much to live on, it’s up to the individual to decide what they can or want to give. **If you don’t ever want to give a cent you don’t have to. **
Those who can spare a bit more might drop some more coins. Myself i have helped fix our roof last year. It’s not all about **money **Simster.

So Simster, feel free to go collect whatever you want and don’t give nothing. Nobody will look at you funny or tell you you must put some coins in the box for the magazines. If you want monthly magazines brought to your house you just request a visit online and it’s all yours Simster.

I bet you can’t believe this, but you can do some research and see if i am lying. I’m sure you really care about whether your accusations are false or not. I’m sure you would be cool enough to correct your statements and apologize if you found out that you are wrongly informed or that your intel on JWs has a 20 year lag.

You probably don’t know that our two magazines are the biggest publications on Earth. No other magazine is printed, spread and translated more. Since it’s not commercials and we just hope to recover the costs afterwards in good faith, that’s more than just a world record.

In fact i never ask for a donation on the street. I just don’t feel like saying anything unless people ask me first if it’s free or not. And where i’m from people are used to just take it without giving anything.
And you know what? I’m happy to give them away. It’s not about the money.

We believe we are doing Jehovah’s work and somehow the costs get covered. Our goal is to spread the word and we’ll worry about the rest later. If God can’t make it work then He ain’t God.
Back to topic.
About the rich man and Lazarus illustration: It is one of the illustrations that indeed confuse a lot of people and personally it’s my least favourite.

I always have a hard time with this one as it is indeed quite different. However, just my personal view is this:

All we know from the OT and NT proves that the dead are not aware of anything. Abraham is dead and what’s more important; the Mosaic Law forbids any spiritism or even trying to consult the dead through a medium. Al these things were punishable by death under the Law.

So when you combine those facts you see it’s unrealistic for the rich man to even ask for the beggar to be sent to warn his brothers. And the whole conversation is clearly a parable.

What i could find online is the observation that the most important thing in the story is that if his brothers won’t pay heed to Moses and the Prophets they also won’t pay heed to someone coming back from the dead. (!)
Lazarus, Jairus’ daughter and Jezus all came back but for many religiously aware Jews that *still *didn’t change their ways at all. Actually the Pharisees decided to kill Jesus shortly after he resurrected Lazarus: John 11:45-53

18

ruben4ruben, I explicitly told everyone to take discussions of Jehovah’s Witnesses to a different thread. If you continue to post on JW topics, I will close this thread with a Warning for refusing to follow Moderator instructions.

[ /Moderating ]

19

This is merely an evasion. Of course, it is a parable. However, it is presented to a group of people who hold certain beliefs. If those beliefs did not include a fiery hell and the presence of people in heaven, then the parable would have made no sense to its audience. Therefore, it is evidence in the New Testament that such beliefs preceded Christianity. (Regardless whether those beliefs are accurate, they were clearly held by some significant portion of the population.)

20

Sorry for replying to that, but since his accusations were not moderated or removed/replaced i felt i at least had to answer. If he would have opened a new topic i would have went there. What he said was quite a mouthful and it’s still there for anyone to read.

In my opinion, it’s a low blow to break topic and accuse someone knowing the mods will step in so he can’t answer. (he also did it with another topic i posted yesterday)

Sorry, i hope you can mod this bit away as i don’t really wanna spoil this topic any further. Just saying sorry.

As for the Lazarus and Rich man parable… i just read the other old posts that were linked. The parable is indeed a meaningful parable because the expression “sitting at Abraham’s bossom” is very old and was common at the time. If you read those old posts it’s explained further why that makes it very clear that this was clearly a symbolic parable and not Jesus using popular beliefs. (of a fiery hell).