Is the war between Israel and just about everyone else in the region likely to spoil the U.S. election?

I don’t want to get into what’s going on in the Mideast, in terms of which side is right, or at least less wrong than the other. Neither do I want to get into whether the U.S. should be supporting Israel, because we are supporting Israel and that circumstance is unlikely to change between now and the election. But I’m gravely concerned the conflict may turn out to spoil the upcoming election in favor of Trump, just as the Vietnam War may have done in favor of Nixon.

I was ten in 1968 so I didn’t really understand what was going on at the time. However, in hindsight my understanding is that the Democrats had a popular antiwar candidate in Robert F. Kennedy, and he might have won in November had he lived long enough to do so. So eventually the Dems nominated Hubert Humphrey, who as sitting VP stood in the shade of LBJ and an unpopular war. Despite Humphrey’s (and LBJ’s for that matter) solid record on civil rights and social welfare, U.S. involvement in Vietnam overshadowed those positive factors, and cost Humphrey enough votes to hand the election over to Nixon.

Except for Jimmy Carter’s single term we had Republican presidents from 1968 to 1992, and I sometimes wonder if this is where the U.S. diverged from the other prosperous democracies in matters of domestic policy. For example, we are the only country in the group without universal healthcare. From about 1964 to early 1968, it seems as if the U.S. was on a trend toward greater emphasis on social welfare, and I can’t help wonder if we would have implemented universal healthcare in the 1970s, if only the Dems had held on to the White House. It doesn’t seem that outlandish an idea to me. But we all know how things worked out, and by the 1980s, anything the government did was a problem, as somebody said at the time. Our national vision of what government could and should do, of the things which government must do because they are too big to be equitably managed by the free market, shriveled. Bill Clinton, the first Democratic president to serve two full terms since Harry Truman, was in some ways more like an old school Republican (think Eisenhower).

What might have been. Left leaning voters refusing to vote for Humphrey to protest the Vietnam conflict was all well and good, but ISTM the long term cost to progressive domestic policy has been enormous.

To be perfectly clear, I’m not claiming that everything I just wrote is justified by the facts. I have no credentials in 20th Century American history. I can say only that this seems plausible to me, and I want to know what other people think.

Flash forward to October 2024. We’re looking down the barrel of Project 2025, a road map to turn this country into a Christian state. Trump disavows any connection to this, and he might even be telling the truth as he manages to understand it. But even without P2025, the prospect of Trump 47 is frightening enough, not least because his pet SCOTUS has pretty much given him legal immunity for anything he might care to do. And speaking of the Supreme Court, whoever wins the election is likely to fill at least one vacancy during the next presidential term. From a liberal or progressive point of view, could anyone be worse than Clarence Thomas, currently the oldest member? Sure they could. We’ve seen it already.

And while all this is unfolding, they talk about baby killers. “They” are the people protesting the Mideast conflict to the exclusion or all other things, and the baby-killer reference harks back to the old anti-LBJ chant. They see Trump and Harris as baby-killers in a red or blue hat respectively. They plan to abstain from voting, or to vote third party to “protest”. If they’re of voting age now, then they should be at least old enough to understand what a disaster Trump 45 was. And that Trump 47 will be at least as bad, even without the potential nightmare authoritarian scenarios that we hear about. Even without all that, I certainly don’t want to see Trump in a position to spend four more years doing what he did the last time around. But I have never been able to convince the antiwar side that maybe, just maybe, domestic policy actually is 1000x more important to the average voter than a war thousands of miles away, even if we are inextricably involved in it and contributing to it.

I have often felt that the progressive left tends to hyperfocus on America’s foreign conflicts while seemingly oblivious to domestic inequities. Of course that varies with the person and the news outlet. Jacobin is solid on covering domestic controversies, but every episode I’ve ever seen of Democracy Now has focused almost entirely on wars abroad. I also have to acknowledge the Occupy and BLM protests as having a domestic focus. But right now, the far left is all about Israel, Hamas, and Gaza.

So what say you? Is the peace vote (or non-vote), going to sink Harris? Or are the numbers not big enough to make a difference?

Americans tend to vote more R-like when they are scared that evil foreigners are going to wreck the USA unless a big strong president weilds a big strong stick to save them.

IMO the mideast war is tiny potatoes compared to the giant bogeyman of fear already foisted off on the gullible fraction of teh American public by the RW propaganda machinery.

The current mideast war will have negligible effect. said another way it’s already baked into the polls.

Unless somebody nukes somebody 3 days before election day. Then comes the question? Do voters flee obviously senile dangerous trump whose suddenly not so funny any more for sensible capable Harris, or do they flee wimpy woman Harris for manly man god-trump? Some of each no doubt.

My bottom line:
If you’re looking for a fresh reason to worry, I’ll ask why you’re trying that hard? There are plenty of other reasons to worry. But worry is always useless.

In addition to the above, my view is that we’re in largely uncharted territory. We’ve had ideologues before, but none has been as powerful and popular as Trump, and we’ve never before been this close to potentially putting American democracy to the torch once and for all. There are roughly comparable historical precedents in other countries, but no analogue is ever perfectly equivalent or predictive. Basically, what happens is what happens, and the whys and wherefores will be debated afterward. Maybe a wider mideast war has an impact, maybe it goes one way or the other, maybe it has no impact at all. I do agree in principle that the progressive left has a well-established and ultimately harmful habit of allowing envisioned perfection to be the enemy of achievable good, but beyond that, I wouldn’t want to make any forecasts of what it might mean.

Well yeah, of course. The far left feels like they’re the legitimate heirs of American power. They have delusions that they represent an invisible/unrepresented majority. But American voters keep demonstrating via popular voting pattern that they want liberalism. This galls leftists to no end, so they mercilessly attack electoral democracy and try to twist the knife on every wedge issue they can. They’ll openly tell you that they’re willing to risk a Trump win, or actually welcome it, because this will bring about the fall of liberalism. They’re playing a fairly straightforward game of 1-dimensional chess.

This is why they ignore genocides that work in the interests of Russia,China and Iran, choosing to focus on ones that divide American political opinion. This is why Jill Stein This is why iran funds pro-Palestinian groups, why China funds Code Pink, why Russia funds Jill stein who spends 4 years between elections doing basically nothing until it’s time to emerge as a spoiler. Leftists aim to bring down electoral democracy because they think they’ll inherit the ashes, when in reality they’ll be the first ones packed off to the camps.

Electorally I don’t think it makes a difference. Anyone turned off to Democrats for reasons of Biden’s support for Israel has been turned off for over a year, and I think everyone else is bored or numb to the story of chaos in the middle east.

This idea that Trump will help Palestine, the Arab nations, and Muslims in general is just such a total joke as to defy all reason. The huge, fanatical block of Trump voters are the fanatical religious right. They are, in fact, the Christian version of the Taliban as far as I’m concerned. They hate and fear Muslims so much that they don’t even want a mosque in their communities. Do people actually believe that Trump would do anything to threaten that voting block by helping Palestine?

Secondly, the “peoples’ party” is the Democratic Party because it favors and supports medicare, social security, women’s rights, voting rights for minorities, and minority equality in general. The Republican Party is the party that is constantly attacking and threatening all of those things. Gee, I wonder, who should I vote for!?

We have far too many people in this country who, if hooked up to an electroencephalogram, would probably show no brain activity whatsoever. May as well pull a sheet over their head and ship them to the morgue as far as I’m concerned.

Correct. This is called “Accelerationism”. They know Trump will make things worse, and they want that, because if things get bad enough for enough people, maybe we’ll be stupid enough to give them the glorious People’s Revolution they desire.

I think it will have a significant impact. US Jews tend more towards voting D

And I suspect a significant number of them will be either voting R, or not voting this year, because Biden hasn’t been sufficiently all-in on Israel’s actions. At about 2% of the population, I honestly don’t know how big that impact will be.

Meanwhile, Muslims are likewise unhappy because they see Biden as not doing enough to limit the harm to their relatives (? I struggled with what word I wanted there) in the ME. It’s hard to imagine them voting for Trump, but staying home? Sure. They’re only about 1% of the population, but concentrated in MI. So that could have a bigger impact.

All IMHO

I highly doubt that. Biden and Kamala are supportive of Israel’s right to exist, which is what Jews care about. I’m sure there will be less turnout or enthusiasm, but at the end of the day Jews are still going to be solidly democratic.

It’s true that there are certain “pro-Palestine” voices - like David Duke - who support not voting for Harris over her alleged support for genocide. They are not serious people, nor particularly numerous. I certainly wouldn’t paint all Arab Americans with such a broad and stupid brush.

No doubt there are a lot of potential voters who give practically zero thought to politics. As far as they’re concerned, the president is the government and they’re only motivated to vote one way or another if something major hits them square between the eyes.

Something major like a full-scale regional war breaking out in the middle east.

While such a conflict might not involve US interests directly, it would grab disinterested voters’ attention. And if they think “War is bad, and this war started with Biden/Harris in power,” they might decide not to vote at all or even to vote for Trump. After all, there were no major wars like this when he was president.

I’m sure such morons are a small percentage of voters. But we all know a small percentage can do a huge amount of damage.

Well said, and unfortunately true.

Israel is already invading and bombing a sovereign country as well as being bombed by another sovereign country, and it seems status quo among American voters. The regional war is already at hand. Sure, a nuke may make a bigger headline, but I am just not seeing short-attention-span American voters moved in large numbers from the positions they are already in, this close to the election.

The sinking of an American war ship or the deaths of some American troops would spawn a reaction from the US, and I guarantee that would impact the election, however.

Your avatar really adds to this point. RUSSIA, you know, the big bad guys we spent the whole cold war worrying about, is currently in the process of conquering and invading Ukraine, one of the biggest nations in Europe. And for the most part, the American electorate has completely moved on (other than certain segments whining about the money we spend on aid to Ukraine).

I’m sure that’s in the back of their mind, but I hear few people outright saying that they want things to fail.

Honest to god, it sounds like they’re just playing a game of chicken that they see as win/win. One outcome is they get ratchet-effect concessions from liberals. The other outcome is that Trump wins, and they cross their arms, claim vindication, and blame it on liberals.

Honest to god the main thrust of their project seems to be to destroy liberalism. That’s why you see them effectively locking arms with MAGA. Both MAGA and leftists are infuriated that their supposedly popular movements don’t attract the support and respect they feel they deserve, so they claim the game is rigged and try to destroy it.

The fact that leftists are trying to take over the machinery of liberalism rather than conservatism tells you everything you need to know about them. It’s not about principle, it’s about the most expedient path to power, and this is the same mindset that led Stalin to throw in with the Nazis to kick off WW2.

Minimal effect. Americans just don’t really care about foreign policy that much. The remaining undecided voters are very unlikely to be paying any attention to Israel.

Right, and the reason they view this second outcome as a potentially good thing is that they believe it will lead to wider adoption of their views. Conscious or not, that’s Accelerationism.

Well, yes, of course. “Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds” is a common saying among adherents of that ideological bend for a reason. They view liberals as Diet Fascists and act accordingly.

True, but let’s not ignore the fact that MAGA is a huge and powerful movement that has taken over the Republican party, while kooky leftists are limited to screeching on Twitter and Reddit. Kamala’s recent shift to showcase the Democrats as patriotic and pro-military (USA chants, describing the US Army as the world’s “most lethal fighting force”, etc) is a rejection of these bozos (and has really sent them into a tailspin), whereas the Republicans made Trump into a god-king.

It’s also the mindset that led Leftists in Weimar Germany to ally with the Nazis in order to destroy the Liberal status quo. They figured once they and the Nazis shattered the Liberal status quo, that they’d gain the people’s support and be ascendant. The fascists, of course, had the same plan and carried it out more successfully.

Well, you’re thinking like a rational person, and the (non)voters I worry about aren’t.

Exactly.

In the '16 and '20 HRC or Biden needed people to vote for them, whereas Trump needed only that peopke diddn’t vote for his opponent, due to the EC and typical voting habits. It worked out for him in 2016, and it almost did in '20.

This still troubles me now, though it may be less of an issue this time around, if what we hear about Trump’s rallies being lightly attended, people leaving early, etc., is true.

Most Americans pay no more than a few seconds’ attention to the Middle East and its wars other than, “Uggggh, can’t this all just stop?” So if Trump goes around lazily promising to bring an end to Middle Eastern wars and blaming Biden for Israel (with no specifics,) that might sway things a bit in his favor.

And a significant number of Jews will be voting for Harris because of who Trump reminds them of. I think the net result will be a wash, and there’s just not that many Jews vs the rest of the population to make much difference.

Likewise, not enough Muslims to really move the needle. Maybe in Michigan there’s enough to make a difference, which yes, could award Trump some electoral college points.