Of course I’ve thought of this–and think that in context it ranks from “you have a point” to “[DEL]Girl[/DEL] Woman You Wish You Hadn’t Started a Conversation With at a Party.” I just think that, in the instance that lead to this thread, it is much closer to the second end of the range than to the first.
Not sure.
I don’t think that’s unique to California. For example, Rita Moreno used to open the PBS kids show Electric Company by yelling, “Hey, you guys!”.
Data point of 1, but: diminutives amongst dudes is more often than not a positive thing hinting at an avuncular bond. I’ve never taken exception to it. I’ve only been in the presence of a handful of women with authority over me (2 army officers, 1 bank manager), curiously they all dropped a “boy” on me at one time or another. How it felt is difficult to describe because I don’t know the womany version of avuncular.
I had no idea they had rebooted Electric Company. But then again, I’m decades away from the target audience.
I’m a male human and I voted “no”, but I also realize I have no right to make that determination myself.
Avauntcular.
“Guys”, to me, is always gender-neutral. “Guy”, singular, is usually male but can mean both depending on the context.
As for the OP, I do feel somewhat uncomfortable with “girls”. Lately I’ve been replacing it with “gals”, which probably makes no sense from a linguistic perspective; I’m pretty sure gal is just a variant pronunciation of girl. But it feels slightly different to me, more adult, and some sentences it doesn’t feel natural to use “women” as a replacement.
On a more logically defensible note, I sometimes try to ask myself, “Would I use ‘boy’ if the genders were reversed?”, but that’s proven less than helpful. I mean, sure, much of the time you can use “boy” interchangeably for “man” or “guy”. But would you, if you weren’t thinking about it? How would you know? How likely does the use of “boy” have to be before “girl” wouldn’t be sexist? It’s just easier to use “woman” or “gal” or “lady” or whatever as a default.
-Malleus, Incus, Stapes!, who is an adult woman, albeit a childish one
This is along the lines of why “guys” is NOT gender neutral. Yes, it’s used to describe/address groups of any gender, but that’s a symptom of our patriarchal society. Why else do you think “guys” is used in this way? How would men feel if a group of them were addressed as “gals”?
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the “guys” thing. To me, if someone says, “Hey guys!”, a masculine connotation doesn’t even occur.
So you intentionally chose the worst examples of songs to undermine your point?
And they aren’t even funny. “Woman, You’ll Be a Girl Soon” by Neil Diamond is about ten times funnier than any example you came up with.
Yeah, see? That’s the problem right there, in a nutshell. Women just don’t think.
The case that prompted this thread was about “Fiji Water girl”, a grown-up model (I was about to say “adult model”, but that has other connotations) who was handing out bottled water at an awards ceremony and photobombing celebrities.
And in certain parts of town, you’re likely to see signs advertising “dancing girls”. I emphatically do not want to see girls dancing (at least, not that sort of dancing); I would want to see women.
EDIT:
Neither, for the most part, do men.
“Girl” is almost always acceptable in informal situations, especially when the speaker is a woman. I have a coworker friend in her 50s, and we both call each other “girl” whenever it is just the two of us.
“Girl” is problematic in professional settings. Youthfulness is a typically considered a virtue, but no one wants to be perceived as a child. It is hard to take a “girl” seriously.
No, I found a list and picked examples of songs by women. Women who don’t have a problem using the word “girl.”
As the guy who wrote the OP for the “Fiji Water Girl” thread, allow me to point out that I was copying the original headline, and that I do not go about calling mature women “girls.” Even though I enjoy using period slang, I also refrain from saying broads, dolls, dames, or skirts.
There’s a trend online with fans, especially when the fandom would be comprised at least 50% of women, and it’s that “boy” is completely commonplace now. There’s a specific context in which it’s being used, and it’s interesting to consider. Basically, it’s only used when talking indirectly about male people of any age, and even moreso when it’s in reference to a character, i.e. a person that isn’t real (Batman, for example.). It’s become a way to subtly exert a claim or ownership over that character. For example, there might be a tweet like “I watched the new Spider-Man movie and I love this boy.” with an attached picture of Miles. Or, for example, “best boy”, as in your favorite, i.e. “Nightwing is clearly best boy and Batman can go jump off a ledge.” or “Hanzo is best boy and I won’t hear otherwise.” They all have a protective context to them where the people are choosing to love a specific “boy”, but it’s detached from the age of the character. This used to be common only with the word “girl”, but now it’s equal with both genders, or maybe even MORE skewed towards using “boy” now. Now that this context has become commonplace, I no longer rankle at women being called girls in the same context. When it comes to real-life interactions, though, I think it’s important to try and stick to men and women so as to keep from being insulting. Guys and ladies is also fine. I wouldn’t want to see “boy” sneaking into the office to level the playing field there; instead we can raise women up. But when we’re just talking about people indirectly (like movie actors), or people that don’t exist, hey just call 'em all girls and boys, it’s fine. It’s cute.
Depends on the situation. It’s offensive when referring to an actual person or in a professional setting, but changing songs would be stupid, especially songs written by women.
If in an office situation a guy tells a group of women: “Hey girls, let’s do this!” That’s offensive.
If a woman is talking to a group of friends says: “Hey girls, let’s do this!” That’s not offensive.
And they are using it in a particular way, that directly contradicts the point you are trying to make. The females who performed the songs were using the term “girl” in the value-laden way that you are denying exists. Replacing it with “woman” doesn’t correct an error; it makes the song nonsensical because the female subject of the song is no longer a person capable of acting like a grown up.
There are clearly other cases where “girl” can be used for adults without such connotations. You just chose examples that intentionally use the word girl to embrace those connotations, apparently without much thought other than”if a girl says it, it’s ok.” Maybe the thought that the woman was using the term to manipulate the listener didn’t occur to you?