Words that are generally offensive can be not in the right context; any word can be offensive in the wrong context or tone of voice. There are a few people from whom I don’t find “girl” offensive when it’s used to refer to an adult woman, but it’s people who also refer to any male as “boy”. Usually, when someone refers to a woman as a girl it’s to indicate that she doesn’t deserve adult treatment: that is definitely offensive. And women who prefer to be called girls are usually expecting to not be required to think or work for themselves: that I find slap-worthy.
A few years ago, I was talking to my mother about a guy at work:
Me: “… and he’s one of those [mocking voice]‘the girls’[/mv] kind of guys.”
Littlebro, 8 years younger: “OK, I need translation. I’ve heard my gf and her friends talk about that as well and I know I’m missing some key data. Explain?”
Me: “I’m not talking about those guys who call anybody ‘lad’ and ‘lass’, who if the Popemobile rolled in front of their house would climb it, envelop the Pope in a bearhug and say ‘MA BOOOOOY! YOU GOTTA COM’IN, I GOTTA CHORIZO AN’ SOME RED YOU JUST HAFTA TRY!’. I’m talking about those guys who refer to me or to my 6-years-older boss as [drag queen tones]‘girls’[/dqt] but who would refer to you as [bowing and scraping]Mr. Lastname[/bas].”
Littlebro: “:smack: Oh! Oh God yes, I know quite a few of those! Ugh!”
Referring to a mixed group as ‘guys’ can also be used by a woman or women in the group as leverage via the claim it ignores or ‘diminishes’ them. Once you’re playing that game full bore, there’s almost no limit to what can be considered ‘offensive’.
So ‘depends on context’ is a weasel answer IMO. Almost any word can be offensive in some context, and the more so under the continual expansion of the concept of giving ‘offense’.
That said, there is always some standard of what’s an appropriate way to address somebody. For example by using honorifics like mr, miss, mrs, ms (though latter three also subject to modern PC complaining about one or another being ‘offensive’) rather than addressing somebody by just their surname. Or cases where it’s not appropriate to use their first name, or their name (less US/English speaking-centrically, in some Asian cultures by tradition you only address very close relatives or friends by their names).
‘So who gets to decide?’ Not any single person, I certainly don’t pretend to be the arbiter. The problem though is where conflicting standards are used as a weapon, which is where US society is now.
William Safire once wrote an On Language column on this very subject, after a woman called him out for introducing her as a “girl photographer.” He wrote “While calling a woman a girl is not as offensive as calling a black man a boy…”
He got letters pointing out it is exactly the same as calling a man of any color a “boy.” You are implying that the person in question is not fully capable of being an adult, and that is extremely offensive.
Next you’ll be telling me that if a pregnant girl in a group of one million such people goes into labor and ives birth to a baby boy, it is okay to call that “a group of men.”
But wouldn’t this be a case where the context is the same. A water boy is no more offensive to call an adult male than a water girl is for an adult female.
In PA you have some of that but again tied to context; “guys” is sometimes used as a synonym for team or for any group of people even if all happen to be female. At work the one lane is often all female and it threw a visiting boss to hear them constantly yelling “C’mon guys” and “Hey guys” at each other.
The only “point” I’m trying to “make” is taking a poll to see people’s positions on whether or not using the word “girl” on an adult human female was inherently offensive. The examples I gave were simply showing that not every woman thinks so. Whatever “point” you are seeing in that related to my “denying the existence” of “value-laden” meanings is absolutely nothing more than projection on your part. My real point of interest is very simple–language descriptivism verses language proscriptivism. Insisting that “girl” applies only to adolescent and younger females and not to (primarily young) adult females when both common useage and dictionary definitions recognize otherwise is strong language proscriptivism. To sum it even more immediately, “Is it offensive to say ‘Fiji Water Girl’ instead of ‘Fiji Water Woman’?” And I don’t even understand what this part
Even means. Seriously–replacing the word “girl” with the word “woman” changes the meaning so that the character in the song is no longer capable of acting like a grownup?" I don’t see the logic in that.
I have heard women referring to each other as “dude.” I love it.
I’m surprised no one has brought up “boyfriend” and “girlfriend.” These seem to apply with equal facility to anyone you’re dating steadily or living-with-but-not-married-to, be they gay, straight or anywhere in between, and at any age from pre-teen to retirement home.
Sure, people sometimes insist on “ladyfriend,” “manfriend,” “partner” or (ugh) “significant other,” but give me “boyfriend” and “girlfriend” any day.
One last thing – my wife refers to herself as “girl” all the time, e.g, “I love most Thai food, but I’m not a curry girl.”
Not at all. In fact Elton John should have been a Rocket Boy, Billy Joel the Piano Boy, Spencer Davis Group should have sung I’m A Boy, Z.Z. Top should have been a Sharp Dressed Boy. We also need Nowhere Boy, Mr. Tambourine Boy, and Street Fighting Boy.
Not to interfere with a good discussion but I just want to point out that the term water boy has been around for a while and in it’s modern context doesn’t really have much to do with age. Referring to a women doing the job of a water boy as a water girl doesn’t seem to be intended to be offensive.
Note that the poll question is whether the use of the word is inherently offensive. Plenty of those who posted here recognize that sometimes it’s not offensive to refer to an adult woman as a girl, or to refer to an adult man as a boy.
Inherently? No. Because context. There are, for example, certain fixed phrases, like “You go, girl!” It can be used inclusively or self-referentially, where the speaker considers themselves a girl. And there’s also using it to make a point–particularly when disapproving.
Your examples are acceptable examples. “Hollaback Girl”'s lyrics are “I ain’t no holla back girl,” saying bad things about considering a woman just to be a last-ditch fuck buddy. “Material Girl” is self-referential, and using an existing phrase. “What a Girl Wants” is self referential, and “Most Girls” is inclusive.
The only weird one is “I Kissed a Girl.” It does feel acceptable to me, but I’m not entirely sure why. It may jut be because the speaker is female and refers to herself as a “good girl” (another common phrase) in the song.
Still, I could see someone arguing that all such language ultimately comes from the male infantilizing of attractive women. But, even with that argument, we aren’t there as a society to object, and there’s not really a good replacement. It’s not like “boy” which we can replace with “guy” or “dude.” “Girl” is the informal term for younger women.
I believe they mean that, if you replace the word with “woman,” you are a grown up. Woman means female adult. So you can’t pretend to be a grown up if you already are grown up.
That said, I do agree with you that they are adding meaning to what you said. Neither what you said nor the context you said it in implies that you are making the point Ravenman claims.
What I will say is that your question obscures the underlying question of whether or not “Fiji Water Girl” is one of those contexts where it is okay or offensive.
I would argue that it is not offensive, per se, but I would understand people preferring a better term. I do get a vague sense of her being lesser, same as I do with the term “water boy.”
I don’t see any reason why “Fiji Water Lady” wouldn’t work. Or even a gender neutral “Fiji Water Giver” or similar.
Eh, not so much. The term woman was only considered an insult if it was spoken to clearly indicate the person wasn’t a lady–that is, didn’t conform to social norms for women in appearance, conduct, language, etc. But in all other contexts, it was fine. The beginning of the popular TV show Ben Casey began with “Man, woman, birth, death, infinity.” Then there were the songs: “When a Man Loves a Woman,” “Pretty Woman,” etc.These were obviously not intended as insults.
Actually, it was the rise of feminism in the Sixties that led to the eventual decline in the use of the term lady as a term that confined women to the restrictive social norms of the day. The 1970s bestseller The Women’s Room, featured a cover in which the word “Ladies” was crossed out on the sign, “Ladies Room.”
That doesn’t mean lady disappeared, of course. In 1971, Tom Jones had a huge hit with “She’s a Lady,” a Paul Anka song. Anka rewrote the first verse in 2013 because he now disliked its “chauvinism.” The original:
Well, she’s all you’d ever want
She’s the kind I like to flaunt and take to dinner
But she always knows her place
She’s got style, she’s got grace, she’s a winner
You can see why “she always knows her place” might offend women now, and why, even to Anka’s conservative eyes, seems a little…dated.
That’s absolutely not true in the UK. Boy is commonly used for adult men. “Me and the boys are going to the boozer tonight”, “My dear boy…” (though you need to be grandfatherly), “How are your boys doing?” (when the boys are grown men in their 50s), “Give me the word and I’ll send the boys round”, “Yes, the boys will be round mid-afternoon to finish the painting”, and so on. You can substitute lads for boys and lassies for girls.
And I’m firmly of the opinion that a sufficiently skilled orator can make anything offensive.