I was catching up on my notifications when I saw this in ATMB, quoted from some other topic as an example of hate speech:
~Max
I will say though, that the quote is out of context. The context made it at very least pretty shitty speech and very misogynistic speech. Which then brings up the question of is all misogynistic speech hate speech?
I’m kind of making sure this poll doesn’t get used as a gotcha by anyone. Not saying that is why you put it up Max.
It seemed to me that at least one member would have considered that sentence to be a form of hate speech because it refers to adult women as ‘girls’ and is therefore demeaning. I occasionally refer to adult women as ‘girls’ and have done so even on these boards, especially when the woman is matched with a man (boy + girl) or is a young adult. I made this a poll as a sanity check.
~Max
It is a part of normal speech. I suspect the poster you quoted thought it was hate speech in context, not just a casual use of girls. But I could be wrong.
Without knowing anything more about the context: no. It’s sexist, and probably also demeaning toward opticians, but in a stereotyping / patronizing sort of way, not a hateful one. Sexism doesn’t automatically equal hate speech.
You may be right. But I did a quick scouring of the internet and at least some people think it is presumptively disrespectful or sexist to call adult women ‘girls’; and, based on previous debates, I believe that some definitions of hate speech encompass disrespectful and sexist words. So there is a path.
~Max
Having been to a few of the chain stores, they seem to be full of young ladies from high school or early college, put there to talk customers into buying upgrades and insurance plans, and that is what I thought the poster was referring to.
Yes, it is, at least in contexts where the adult women you’re referring to are strangers to you, and especially where you’re referring to them in any kind of formal/professional roles.
If your adult female friends or relatives or neighbors or whoever like you to call them “girls” in casual conversation, knock yourself out: that’s nobody’s business but theirs and yours.
But calling adult women “girls” in any formal or professional setting, especially if you don’t know the women in question, is a disrespectful and sexist form of address, even if you personally didn’t intend any disrespect or sexism.
(Are you old enough to remember back when many white Americans routinely called many adult black men “boys”? I am. Remember how quite a few of those white people didn’t intend any deliberate respect, but were just using the form of address that they were used to and that was considered conventional? Remember how the black men in question nonetheless felt disrespected by being called “boy”, even if the white person using the term wasn’t intentionally disrespecting them? I do.
“Don’t call any adult woman a ‘girl’ in any situation where you would consider it inappropriate to call an adult black man a ‘boy’” is a reasonable guideline for this kind of usage.)
Does that mean that calling adult women “girls” is automatically rude or disrespectful enough to qualify as hate speech? I wouldn’t say so, although there are certainly people who do use the term in a deliberately hate-speechy kind of way.
Weird, because my internal rule on that is “never call a black man a ‘boy’ unless you want to get beat up”. ETA: I guess it’s not weird, but I get your point.
~Max
Nice post and well said.
Lol at this even being a question. People are right to be worried about slippery slopes if this sort of language is problematic. At the very worst the language is unwoke.
I wonder how folks feel when the Golden Girls come on?
Well gosh, if you and your adult male black friend like calling each other “boy”, surely you wouldn’t consider that usage as violating your internal rule, would you? It’s absolutely nobody else’s business how you and your friend choose to speak together consensually.
(Maybe don’t address him as “boy” among strangers where some quick-tempered person might assume you were doing it in a racist way, though.)
Similarly, if your adult female friend is okay with your referring to her as a “girl”, then it’s nobody else’s business. But calling adult women “girls” when you don’t know they’re personally okay with it, or in a formal/professional context where they’re entitled to adult respect and dignity, is disrespectful.
Lame attempt at a gotcha. Let’s not.
~Max
I agree in a professional setting folks should be addressed erring on the side of formality. But to ask if it’s intrinsically hate speech is what I feel makes the concept of language police so ridiculous. Especially since the motivation to police speech is ill intended.
?? Are you really not able to tell the difference between the entertainment industry’s use of colloquialisms for the purpose of marketing entertainment products depicting fictional characters, and appropriate etiquette for modes of address for real-life people on the part of other real-life people?
Does the existence of the reality TV show called Jackass likewise lead you to believe that it’s okay to refer to random strangers as “jackass” in a formal/professional setting? Because if so, that belief is probably going to get you in trouble at some point.
I guess I can understand why you are asking. That said, I think it’s a misunderstanding based on something that often comes up—people see explanations of social concepts working like mathematical equations. They don’t realize that they’re more simplifications of complex concepts, and that every statement will be some level of generalization.
Instead of trying to synthesize information from different statements, I think it’s more useful to look at the broader picture. Hate speech is a term that is used to mean something worse than simply disrespectful. It’s more about using speech to belittle, advocate discrimination, or worse to someone in a suspect class. The use of “girl” could be used that way, but it wouldn’t be the default.
More often, it would be a microaggression, a small thing that wouldn’t matter much if it was only one person saying it, but when it’s said by a lot of people, it starts to get hurtful. And that, if a lot of people say it, it shows a societal issue with the topic at hand.
I do try to avoid using it, but I’ve slipped up when thinking about college-age people, because, as I get older, they seem more like kids to me. I remember, when I was 18, I wouldn’t even refer to teenagers as girls, but instead “young women.”
Also, it doesn’t help that the female countepart to “guy” is “girl.” No one uses “gal,” which I think may even have just been a different pronunciation of “girl” anyways. There isn’t a casual term that implies female-ness.
My point in all of that it is that it’s too easy for people who are wellmeaning to slip up and say “girl” for it to be considered full on hate speech.
Of course, since opinions vary widely, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are at least a few who would call any use of “girl” for adult women to be hate speech. But I would consider them on the fringes.
In a professional setting, perhaps no. City driving? I’ve said worse. Which is my issue with intrinsic so-called hate speech.
It’s not even that, if the meaning of the quote is that opticians hire a lot of sixteen-year-old employees.
But if “girls” was a reference to their sex and not their age, it’s probably sexist and demaining. But not hateful.
I understand what you’re saying, it just doesn’t match with my experience. My personal ideas of general appropriate behavior are based off years of experience, as are yours. You’ve offered advice, which I will take under due consideration. So far in my life, you’re in the minority. That being said I do see reason in your arguments and if I am led to believe that most people agree with you, I would change my position.
~Max
I know plenty of people who say “gal”. I personally use “guys” for both sexes, and do not use “girl” as a counterpart for “guy”.
~Max