In Homer’s story there is not of course, in Vigil’s retelling of it there absolutely is. The whole point of the story is as a patriotic (and pro Augustan) Roman myth and part of that is portraying the manly honorable Romans (well proto-Romans, the protagonists were the legendary Trojan ancestors of the Romans) in contrast to the conniving untrustworthy Greeks.
Because that is not a vestige of a bygone age. Romany people are absolutely still the victim of all the prejudice implied by that term, whether or not everyone who uses the term is aware of that.
Welsh people, I can speak from experience here, are not still subject to the implication they are untrustworthy and should not be wagered with.
When I read stuff like this and listen to the opinions of others in this thread, I am not convinced by your assertion:
Anti-Welsh sentiment is definitely alive and well, but I think the point is that the specific “Welsh people can’t be wagered with” is no longer a thing.
Well, that article does go about a diatribe that the Welsh are “immoral liars,” so I think that’s splitting hairs a bit.
Exactly! Just like “Welshing on a bet”
I recall a conversation many years ago with an English medical student who was complaining about one of his instructors and in referring to him derogatorily, included “Welsh bastard” or some such phrase in his diatribe. My first reaction was “what does his being Welsh have to do with it?”
After that, I began to notice a pattern among English people to include ethnic descriptors in their insults “Scottish bastard,” “French bastard,” whatever. In America, specifying someone’s ethnicity when disparaging em would definitely ring bigotry alarms.
I don’t know whether it’s an accurate observation on my part—does it seem to be more common or more accepted in England?
Well, but the difference is that “welch” as a standalone word isn’t referencing an event like the Trojan Horse saga. Even if it’s etymologically a coincidence, we don’t know what else it’s referencing, so it’s hard to interpret it any other way. Arguably, by using it you’re enabling/sustaining a stereotype.
Imagine a kid coming across it for the first time.
“Daddy, why do we say that? Are Welsh people mean?”
“No.”
“Then why do we use that word.”
“Um…”
As opposed to:
“Daddy, why do we say Greeks bearing gifts?”
Where we have a specific story of Greek people doing something clever.
First, it’s not restricted to betting. I’ve heard it used for not paying on a deal that’s been arranged, so generally untrustworthy in money matters, not just gambling debts.
Second, I take it you’ve never heard “Taffy was a Welshman” being recited.
No, and as someone who got a lot of sh-t for being (considered) Welsh as a kid that says a lot about how archaic that kind of implication is.
I knew people of Romany descent growing up and I know for a fact they would not say the same thing.
You missed ‘English bastard’. There’s a hell of a lot more anti-English sentiment directed by the Welsh, Scots and Irish than in reverse. Just to add a little balance.
Not trying to throw gasoline on this fire, but I wonder how common this is around the world?
Namely that the anti-Other sentiment of the minority group is extra vehement to make up for the sheer volumetric advantage of the anti-Other sentiment of the majority group coming at them.
E.g., England’s population of ~56 million dwarfs that of Wales at ~3 million. IOW the Welsh are outnumbered by the English about 17-to-1. So, to make up for their smaller numbers do the Welsh use e.g., “English bastard” and the sentiment behind it extra-strongly or extra-more-frequently vs the English using “Welsh bastard”?
As always the USA is weird about this because of the extra overlay of prior slavery and its remarkably durable on-going legacy upon our headline ethnic divide. So the US experience may not be representative of world experience.
I know I don’t know. I have my hunches of course, but I don’t know.
Comments?
Oh I agree! But the slant of the conversation seemed to be veering towards ‘why are the English so racist about their neighbours’ when, by and large, the vast majority are not but get a mountain of flak from the other home nations.
I speak as someone English married to a Welsh woman who freely admits they were raised to openly hate the English (she grew out of it).
It’s been used today in another thread to describe Kevin McCarthy’s untrustworthy nature.
That isn’t remotely balanced. You’ve made a highly contentious unproven allegation.
Really? I’m going by experience, and that of my Welsh wife. The abuse goes both ways, to pretend otherwise is absurd.
Didn’t say it didn’t go both ways. It’s absurd to pretend that I did. In my opinion, your assertion “There’s a hell of a lot more anti-English sentiment directed by the Welsh, Scots and Irish than in reverse” is dangerously complacent, patronising and based on nothing more than confirmation bias.
And the usual way to resolve our differences is to celebrate that at least we are not as bad as [ mutual out-group - Yanks? ].
My experience of Welsh anti-English sentiment is that it predominantly comes up when the English aren’t staying in their lane. It is incontrovertible that English language and culture, given their numbers, location, power, and prestige, are the greatest threat to Welsh language and culture. The Welsh people I know are quite happy to enjoy and participate in English culture, but get upset when the English don’t respect Welsh culture by staying away / leaving it alone.
I’ve never come across entirely serious anti-English sentiment, but there’s quite a strong defensive reaction that comes across as we don’t want you here (in our space) that is reserved for the English and no other groups, and I can see how that would be taken as anti-English by people who aren’t thinking about the deeper context.