Clowns on the American Right were carrying swastikas to imply Obama is a Nazi or has similar policies because he won the election and that makes them sad. Pelosi pointed this out.
Why is this confusing?
I think you are missing the point being made to you and this is a stellar example.
“Nancy Pelosi compares protesters to Nazi’s” was a politically motivated willful distortion of the truth by the opposition. That’s a political tactic some groups{not all republicans} use often. They will extract a phrase out of context and distort it to claim something negative about the WH and Dems in general.
When you casually repeat these lies using the same or similar wording you are helping to validate a lie. I agree that the Dems should use some wisdom in how they express things but in the real world they will make the casual slip and those who like to distort a phrase to serve their own agenda will use it. I think it’s important to consistently point out those lies and back it up with facts and a little reason.
I’d agree that it doesn’t do any good to insult those who unfortunately swallow the lies. I’m suggesting that rather than repeating them as if they have validity we continue to point out the malicious purpose of these lies. I think there’s a lot of people who don’t support Obama but still don’t like being lied to.
Off to work.
So, now you’re a mind reader and can tell I’m being dishonest. I happen to appreciate and support that particular tradition and my request was sincereand hardly qualifies as harassment. Imean really :rolleyes:
Yes, I’d already done the legwork on that one weeks ago and knew you were repeating a political lie. What I didn’t know was if you had made any effort to discover the truth and that’s why I asked.
because they were. That’s factual.
People carried Hitler and Nazi signs protesting Bush and the wars but nobody thought they were Nazi’s It’s a fairly obvious and relevent point that the people holding the signs were calling someone a nazi.
It sure as hell isn’t all that counts. Are we to encourage people abandoning all reason and common sense? Yes, people took it that way because others l**ied **about what she said and what she meant with the specific intention of distirting her words for thier political gain. It wasn’t an accidental misunderstanding because she was careless. Others believed what they were told without checking. Should Nancy apologize for stating a fact or whould we work to expose those that purposely lie and correct the misunderstanding by pointing out that it’s a lie.
Also, do you seriously think that people carrying Nazi signs to a health care protest are going to be negotiated with in any reasonable manner. I’m not saying forget them. I’m saying we have to continue to exspose the lies and let the more rational members of the GOP work on the less rational ones.
Your casual repition of this lie doesn’t help.
when you say something and someone then twists your words to purposely lie about what was said the exact words do matter. You’re claiming the Dems need to be more careful about what they say but here you are carelessly and casually repeating bullshit. She **did not ** Godwinize the discussion. She stated a factual observation which is not the same thing.
Since she did neither of those this is pointless. Nothing Pelosis did or said indicated she wasn’t interested in answering real questions or concerns. Trying to talk to people who accuse you of being a Nazi {the protesters with the signs} doesn’t strike me as time well spent.
They godwinized the town hall debate. She godwinized the discussion. Her response was foolish, very poor tactics. She should have ignored them.
That’s taking a very liberal interpretation of Godwin’s Law. Very liberal. Like a completely made-up interpretation.
“Wow, he’s carrying a sign with a swastika on it.”
“GODWIN! You lose!”
Yes, and I think you are missing the point. There is little practical difference between saying “they were carrying Swastikas” and saying “they were Nazis”. As far as I know, nobody but Nazis walk around carrying swastikas. One is shorthand for the other.
Is it a lie that Nancy said they were carrying swastikas? What would be her purpose in saying that other than to identify them with Nazis?
And in the event, people reacted to her statement very predictably. They were outraged that she would compare them to Nazis. Which she did do. No, she didn’t use the word “Nazis” … so what, when the effect is the same? People got pissed off. Pissing off the people sitting on the other side of the table is dumb, dumb, dumb.
An excellent rule for any negotiation is don’t get pissed off and don’t piss your adversary off. Nancy broke both rules, and you seem to think that’s perfectly fine. I think it is foolish, and childish in the extreme. If they want to carry swastikas, fine, we have work to do and no time to get distracted by trivia like that.
Thaaaat they were trying to call Obama a Nazi and that’s a despicable thing to do?
Bosstone, you are 100% correct, of course it is despicable … but are we trying to score points and establish our moral superiority, or are we trying to pass a bill? In a negotiation, there is no gain from pointing out an opponent’s flaws. They may be terrible human beings, but we are not trying to reform them or castigate them. We are trying to get them onside, not insult them or make them feel bad.
This is about tactics. Saying “X is not true” will have a very different effect on people than saying “Your leaders are liars.” “Your leaders are liars” has the unspoken corollary that “You are so stupid that you fall for lies”. Saying that does not move us towards our goal.
Many of you seem to think that this is some kind of discussion where the point is to be right. I am not interested in which side is right, I am interested in passing a health care bill. When we call out people for their sins of omission and commission, nothing is gained. Yes, we’re right, yes, their leaders are lying to them, yes people are distorting what each side has said … but proving that gains us nothing. This game is not about establishing who has been duped, it is about passing a health care bill. We need successful tactics, not proving eternal verities or engaging in personal attacks.
I sincerely understand and agree with your point that “the language we, and especially our leaders, use matters” What really confuses me is the way your posts demonstrate the opposite.
The above statement shows a real abuse and lack of understanding of how the English language works. There is indeed a very practical and very significant difference between the two phrases especially in context of her conversation.
When I point out the protesters on front of the clinic across from my house are carrying posters with pictures of aborted fetuses I am not accusing them of being abortionists am I? That would be a ridiculous interpretation. I’m noting what they are carrying to their protest.
If *all *she said was “The protesters were carrying swastikas at the protest” then there would be a legitimate question as to how she meant that but it still wouldn’t be fair to conclude the worst. But that isn’t all she said and in context it’s perfectly clear that she wasn’t calling anyone Nazi’s. They were calling Obama a Nazi and she was pointing it out.
Now here you are doing the same thing the opposition does. Pulling a few words out of context and making a false accusation. How can you legitimately complain about the Dems choice of words when you do this kind of thing?
Are you seriously trying to imply there can’t be another reason? Even after the posts that pointed it out? I sincerely don’t get this tactic.
There may have some people who sincerely misunderstood her words because of political bias but there were also those who purposely distorted the truth by doing what you’ve done in these last few posts.
Pelosi’s mistake in those first weeks of protests was to not focus on the real undercurrent of mistrust and anger in the American public and to comment on the “astroturf” as if that’s all it was.
That’s a gross oversimplification of my position. I’m suggesting a multi pronged approach. Listen and discover the real sincere concerns from the public. This takes patience and respect. Continue to state the truth and inform and educate dispelling the lies being purposely spread. Call out the liars and show the public that those trying to divide and distract us by purposely starting and spreading false information are not helping and do not have their interests at heart. Encourage them to do the research and discover the truth for their own sake and for the sake of their country.
Even after having done this there will be plenty who don’t want to negotiate or listen. They won’t try and discover the truth behind the BS they hear and read being spread by fear mongers. We can’t wait for that group to come around.
Which must be why you brought it up and repeated the lie.
btw; I agree with the basic sentiment. I think our leaders shouldn’t help sensationalize the fringe by having lengthy discussions about them.
I think they should express concern and regret about such inappropriate behavior and quickly move on to address real issues.
We have another wonderful example today, with Jimmy Carter saying
Now, the predictable headlines will begin. Opponents of Obama will once again feel insulted and slighted. Guaranteed. No question. The headlines will say “Obama Opponents are Racists”. Guaranteed. No question. What good does that do any of us? Does it bring us together? Does it heal wounds? Does it make it easier to achieve consensus on heath care?
The main point I wish to make is that insulting your opponents doesn’t buy you anything. When diplomats sit down to negotiate, it is extremely rare for one side to tell the other that they are lying, or that they are racist. Even if they are. Especially if they are. Why? Because they want to achieve an end, not claim moral superiority.
Carter’s comment will only further divide the two sides and make unified action that much harder. What good is that? His sanctimonious preaching may be true or it may not be … but it is hugely counterproductive whether it is true or not. Like many holier-than-thou folks, he thinks he’s doing good, when in fact he’s encouraging people to split even further apart. Pathetic.
PS - I voted for Carter. I don’t regret it. He made human rights a legitimate subject for international discussion, and in my work with the poor people around the world, he was warmly regarded for that change. But he’s lost the plot on this one.
Racism still exists. The home for them is the conservative republicans. To simply say there are no racial overtones in the loud and nasty criticism Obama gets, is a joke. They know better than to say it directly, but the code is not hard to decipher. The school address was not a big deal except it is part of a continuing policy of fighting every single measure Obama offers.
Sen Bingaman from New Mexico was just on Charley Rose talking about health care. He said privately that some repubs he has talked to agree that health care is broken and needs to be fixed. When asked why they would not vote for it now, he said they have stated they would not do it on Obama’s watch.
As you wish. My apologies, Shodan.
Well isn’t that a stellar example of putting the people’s needs first? But that could be just politics.
I think Jimmy is right and what would be normal political positioning is amplified by people’s racism. It could be racism that they’re not even aware of or won’t admit it to themselves. They’re a little concerned that a black man could turn out to be the best president we’ve had {especially in comparison to the last one} so they’ll be a bit crazier with their opposition.
I’ve heard the discussions in the last few days about racism and JC’s comments. One comment was “We know it’s a real part of what’s going on so why can’t we talk about it?”
I think it’s because it doesn’t help to keep talking about it. People must be free to discuss and criticize policy without being accused of being a racist. If people haven’t done anything overtly racist then deal with the details of the policy. We need to encourage Obama supporters to be very very cautious about throwing that word around. We also need to encourage the opposition to repudiate racist symbols and signs in their midst.
I think we need to focus on changing politics and policy. The undercurrent of racism will be along for the ride and will be dealt with in due course.
I tend to agree. Although he is probably right people have to be free to criticize this president without being called a racist. I think racism has probably amplified some of the opposition but we must try and stick to policy. It should also be understood that overt racism such as carrying Obama as witchdoctor signs is unacceptable. I would hope we’d get some support from the GOP on that one.
Although Jimmy is a Democratic icon he is no longer an active leader in the Democratic party so I think his comments will fade fairly quickly. The main thing is for active Dem leaders to never use this as a defense. We need to be focused on policy and the interests of the American public.
I’ve already stated I understand your position. I agree in part and disagree on some of the details.
This is a false statement. You really need to learn how to separate issues and details of issues when discussing them.
People disagreeing with a specific point you are making is not the same as “Don’t ever criticize Obama , he walks on water” Making that leap is a bit ridiculous and doesn’t help the discussion at all.
Can you point out where anyone attacked you for criticizing Rangel? You can’t because it didn’t happen. It’s an entirely separate issue. They may seem the same to you in principle but the details are are quite different and that matters.
You were criticized for carelessly repeating the same lies the opposition are using. That’s something you’ve done twice in this thread.
That’s not a practical course of action in politics. You don’t wait until you’re doing everything just right. What we should attempt to do is judge ourselves by the same standard we judge the opposition. In this case it would really help our credibility with the public to remove Rangel form his chair.
A lot of dems have criticized Obama’'s lack of guts to act on the mandate he was given. Gradual change will work for the repubs. When they get in they do wholesale changes to everything. The dems are trying to be reasonable in an unreasonable political climate. Man up and fix the Bush mess now.
intention; over the last week or so after watching several town hall clips; clips of the 9/12 gathering, and reading a few discussions; I’d have to say I do think more patience and less emotional confrontation is called for.
I agree that name calling doesn’t help. I still believe we need to call out the liars but even in that we need to offer some the benefit of the doubt. Being mistaken or misinformed is not the same as lying. I watched a clip where a reporter was interviewing folks at the 9/12 gathering and he discovered many of them knew very few specifics about what they were protesting. They repeated things they had heard or read somewhere without taking the time to check it out. It does no good to call those people liars or stupid.
I watched Al Franken patiently discuss details with a group and patiently thank them for their questions while another Dem rep seemed personally offended by their frustration and anger.
I say we just keep stressing to people they need to do the research it takes to discover the facts and not to accept every rumor thrown out there as factual. Encourage them to be willing to listen to the opposition and at give fair consideration to other ideas.
This isn’t a sporting event where the important thing is for our team to win. It’s about working together in spite of our differences to find real solutions, often in compromise.
I’m so tired of the juvenile Dens are this and Pubbies are that. There’s good and bad in both parties , honesty and corruption. I think conservatives and liberals can probably agree on ways to begin to take the big money out of politics so we can at least have an honest debate.
Via IOZ:
Couldn’t agree more, Cosmodan. There’s important work to be done, far too important to waste time slagging our opponents.