When I present this idea (which may not even be remotely new), I’m not saying that this type of misogyny is the most dangerous, most common, or most severe. Not even close. I think that nerds, if misogynistic, are less likely to actually, say, beat women than other types of misogynists (since nerds tend to be pretty non-violent folk).
But it seems to me that some nerds have a sort of mild misogyny that grows out of their own inability to get laid and inability to understand women. Many nerds are on the “cannot understand people” side of the wall, and they just can’t relate to women or have a conversation with women, because they just don’t understand people the way they understand computers.
So they view women as irrational, mysterious beings that are just beyond their grasp. And yet they act as though “woman want this” or “women want that” when, in reality, women just want somebody who is conversational and able to work solidly with people.
I realize that tons of people self-identify as nerds and don’t have any serious lack of people skills. There are probably hundreds of such people who use this board and might read this post. But my experience is that the above profile applies to a non-negligible quantity of nerds. I’m curious whether others have spotted this brand of misogyny and if they agree with me.
It’s the personality type thing that interests me. I think that there are different flavors of misogyny. Maybe I’m trying to identify a sort of misogyny that results from an inability to communicate with other people, and that could be found both in nerdy types and other types.
If what you are describing does actually exist, I’m not sure it’s misogyny, exactly. Suppose someone truly has no social skills, that means they don’t relate to anybody. It doesn’t mean they hate women, I’m sure they’d like to have their pick of them. They can just dismiss the guys they don’t get along with.
I hope my use of the third-person is appropriate.
I see it all the time, especially when women shop for computers. A totally computer-savvy woman can bring a utterly clueless male friend with her to shop for a computer, and nine times out of ten, the salescritter (male or female) will address the man. It’s exacerbated by the fact that your typical male nerd doesn’t think he would have so plebeian a bias. “No, it’s the muscle-bound jocks who are biased!”
It’s not a “sort of” misogyny, it’s a real misogyny and yes, it does exist. I think it exists in the type of nerd who excels at logic and analytical thinking but is lacking in social intelligence. They tend to view women as a problem to be solved: figure out the correct inputs to achieve the wanted results and you’re done. They tend to see male human nerd as the default and everyone else as “other”, which is part of their social skills problems. People are notoriously variable, what works for one does not work on another, and you have to figure out each as an individual. That, and women are also human beings and should to spoken to like human beings and not a different species. It’s not as overtly toxic as, say, a wife beater, but it’s still not a good thing.
Is a salesman addressing the woman in the relationship, when buying a washing machine, an example of misandry? Why not? I’m willing to bet that men, on average, know more about computers and other gadgets than women, so why wouldn’t the salesperson play the probabilities and address the man by default?
Ah. Now this is a nice example of what I wanted to mention. In my country at least, there are very few women working in IT - especially in the programming department (i.e. the people “who do the actual work”). Many programmers tend to view every body else (management, designers, sales people etc) as lacking understanding anyway and for some reason this also is the default position made about women.
I’m not talking about a general idea that women (or sales people, or whoever) are inferior, but the assumption that they lack the kind of skills to be really good at computers is definitely there, even when they actually are programmers. On top of that, programmers tend to view themselves as being particularly good at what they do, even when in reality they’re not that hot.
Programming does have a bit of a macho culture, I think, and also attracts people who are extremely focused on their skills and require a lot of evidence before they accept that someone else is as good as they are. I think it’s harder for women to get accepted in that culture.
I haven’t worked in many different companies, and never outside the Netherlands, so YMMV.
Well, Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party, first off, I think it is misogyny because no matter how many times the tech sales drone is told that I am the one looking for computer components, he still turns to the man in my group to address the answer to any question even though I am the one who asked the question. Secondly, in my experience, washing machine sales drones of similar tend to only address smarmy remarks to women and again when answer technical questions about the washing machine, they turn to address the man in the group even though I am the one who asked the technical question.Women make a large majority of the purchasing decisions for thing used at home and they do tend to research their decisions, so it seems especially idiotic not to expect technical questions from women.
I am in IT and I make the purchasing decisions about both computers and washing machines, but I do consult my husband about features he would like in the washing machine, because he is the one who will be using it.
And it is real misogyny that I see in geekdom. I think it is misogyny when they tell KellyM she “has too much estrogen” to be in a linux channel geared toward providing technical assistance.
You see nerdy misogyny all the time on newspaper websites, including left wing ones. A woman will write an article and people will post comments such as “utter piffle”, even though no one would ever talk like that in real life. If the article addresses gender issues, someone will ignore all the substantive points in it and comment “of all the problems in the world, do you really think this is the most important one to write about?”, even though he had taken precious time to read the article and write a reply. They will also invariably accuse the writer of playing the victim card, even though there’s no evidence for that in the article.
Nobody’s yet explained now this alleged nerd misogyny is different from sexism in general, which is what the OP is asking. The “salesman talks to the guy when buying computer parts” bit applies to buying cars, power tools, and almost anything else stereotypically male, whether nerds are involved or not.
Note that 2 of these women (Lara Croft and Aeon Flux) are not actual people. Half of them play characters that are non-human (cyborgs, aliens) or superhuman. Nearly all of them kick ass on a level that is unrealistic for a woman of their size and stature.
And the list does not include other common nerd favorites like Lucy Lawless (Xena), Milla Jovovich (5th Element and Resident Evil), Kelly LeBrock (Weird Science) the rest of the female Battlestar Galactica cast, the three female characters in LOTRs, various anatomically enhanced female superheroes, assorted sexy robots and cyborgs and anime characters.
This is misogynistic in that nerds do not view women as real people. They view them objects (quite litterally in the case of sexy robots) or a sort of magical creature to be either controlled or held on some kind of figurative pedestal.
The IT field has a “faux” macho culture. It can be best exemplified by Michael Bolton in Office Space. A big mouth guy who listens to NWA and has Navy Seal recruitment posters on his wall but can probably barely do a pushup.
See, there’s your problem. It’s OK for you to make sweeping generalisations about “what women want” as if all women were exactly the same and not individual human beings with unique personalities, but when anyone male does it, it’s “misogynist”.
And since women can’t be sexist, it’s perfectly OK to generalise about some sub-set of the male gender as if they were all the same, too. Which is, of course, completely different to the sort of behaviour you’re complaining about.
What are trying to say? How is that substantially different than any “Top X” list relating to women (or men for that matter). Does that make People full of nerd misogynists and misandrists? And why would you use the editors at Maxim as a barometer for what nerds like?
Spike TV did a similar list and not a single woman appeared on both lists. The Spike TV list features no fictional characters and very few of them play “ass kicking females”.
Not only that, but your “they wuz robbed” list includes very few woman from recent nerd/geek crushes, unlike the Spike list. Even that Maxim list seems based on media from a decade ago.
You’re missing the boat. I should have refrained from saying that women want somebody who can hold a conversation and work with people, but not because it isn’t true. It’s banal. It’s true of the vast majority of human beings. To say that women want a partner who can communicate with them well is like saying that women want a partner who doesn’t hit them all the time.
I’m also not generalizing about a particular subculture. I made it clear in my OP that I was talking about an attitude that might exist among some nerds.
Aside from the idea that nerds somehow try to treat women like computer problems to be solved I don’t see anything that distinguishes the nerd subculture in this respect. Lots of men of all lifestyles haven’t a clue how to approach or speak to women, and in manifests itself in all sorts of ways. Since a common complaint about car salesmen is they will only talk to the man I don’t see how things are appreciably different in other fields.
Lots of men have problems dealing with women. Lots of nerds are just fine dealing with women. Nearly all the male nerds I work with are married or have girlfriends. And there are few female nerds, still. Bottom line is I don’t see anything that separates this “nerdy misogyny” from “normal misogyny”.
I think you are missing the point (and FYI the tone of your post makes you sound a bit assholeish just in case that was not your intent). The purpose of that list was simply to demonstrate the types of female characters and women many nerds find attractive. Not to say the list themselves are misogynist nor that all geek crushes are misogyny.
It is difficult to pin down what exactly is a nerd and what exactly is misogyny. But generally, desiring women to fall into a sort of Madonna / whore dichotomy can be considered vaguely misogynistic. A nerd variation would be a Pam Beasly / Cylon Six complex. For a nerd, women must either be shy, intellectual, bookish, sexually awkward to the point of almost being virginal (like Pam from The Office, Liz Lemon from 30 Rock, or Summer Glau from Firefly) or a cartoonishly Amazonian living sex doll (like Six for BSG or Summer Glau from Terminator: TSCC). Any woman who does not fall into those extremes is considered to vapid and stupid or not sexy enough to be taken seriously.
Of course this is not significantly different from regular people misogyny where the man expects the woman to be either a perfectly accomodating Stepford Wife or a stripper.
FWIW, that particularly kind of whiny, “women are impossible to understand so I won’t even try” misogyny is not exclusive to classic nerds. My brother has had terrible luck with women over the years, and now he views women a bit like the OP describes. He doesn’t “get” women, so he childishly throws up his hands and says that no one can “get” women. He isn’t a nerd, though; he’s fairly personable and knows how to get along with people, and even has friends of both genders.
Author Junot Diaz sort of addressed something like this recently – white, male nerds who can’t comprehend that anyone but themselves could feel like outsiders (including female nerds and nerds that are an ethnic minority).
But nerds are a huge group. Some make me want to scream because they treat women like aliens and refuse to believe that an ostensibly hot woman could feel alienated and awkward. Some are wonderfully funny and self-effacing and make great boyfriends.
Again, what the hell are you talking about? It’s an article in Maxim purporting to be a list of women nerds find attractive. That’s like asking the editors of Billboard for a list of the best chefs ever. One has nothing to do with the other.
Personally, I think it’s rather telling that you continue to harp on the “madonna/whore” complex of characters these women may play while ignoring the characteristics/personality of the women themselves.
Finally, if you can’t understand why a nerd guy would want to date a shy, intellectual, bookish, awkward girl, you don’t have any idea what it’s like being a nerd. We want a girl who is like that because we’re like that. “Opposites attract” may be a common cliche, but finding someone like yourself makes for a better relationship.