I’ve had several contractors come to my house to interview them for the installation of a new cooling system. I used my iPhone voice recorder to record the conversations without their knowledge. A couple of them promised a few things that they weren’t allowed to provide in writing, but verbally guaranteed.
I’ve now selected the vendor. I hope to never have to use the recording, but felt it provides some level of protection from any bait-and-switch tactics.
I understand that such a recording may or may not hold up in court (depending on the jurisdiction). But I’m not interested in the legal part, just whether anyone thinks that it’s unethical in any way.
It’s unarguably unethical. It’s definitely illegal in my state (and many others) to record people without their consent. If it’s illegal in your state, then why did you do it? Why didn’t you just tell them that you were recording before they talked to you? That way you’d actually be able to use the information you obtained and you would actually have peace of mind.
I mean, unless you plan to take it to the media and embark on a smear campaign, recording without consent is pointless.
I would argue that making such recordings is only unethical if making such recordings is illegal. That is, if the laws in your state allow single-party recording, then people should basically assume that anything they say might be recorded by the other parties present.
What you do with the recording afterward may or may not be ethical. I think that using the portion that pertains to a particular agreement to enforce that agreement is ethical. But, say, if the contractor made some racial slur, using the threat of releasing the recording to enforce the agreement would not be ethical. Although I imagine you wouldn’t choose a contractor who made a racial slur that you disagreed with.
They’re not allowed to guarantee it in writing? If it’s legal for them to do it/promise it, then why wouldn’t they be allowed to put it in writing? If it is legal, why would you work with a contractor that refuses to put it in writing?
This whole thing stinks, on all sides. Recordings aside (and yes I think it’s unethical, and most likely useless, too – it’s not much of a threat if it won’t stand up in court), I can’t imagine why you’d go with a contractor who refused/was prohibited from putting all the work in writing beforehand. If you work with someone who is demonstrably shady, then you can expect to get screwed over at the end.
I also don’t understand why you wouldn’t just tell them you were recording it. Then they don’t promise anything that they won’t deliver, since they know they can’t get away with claiming they never promised it, so you’ll get accurate estimates of the work, and no hassles later when it comes time to get them to do it. If the point is to protect yourself from being lied to, then letting them know they’re being recorded would be more effective in doing that than the alternative.
Eh, I think it’s unethical if it’s illegal wherever you happen to be…unless you’re trying to set up a sting, in which case I think that a “greater good” case can be made.
However, if someone will promise something verbally, but won’t put it in writing, then that person/company gets striken from my list of candidates. And it might be interesting to set up a recording, TELL them that you’re recording, and get their verbal acknowledgement that you’re recording. I’m pretty sure, but not certain, that the laws against recording someone will allow recordings when all parties know that the event is being recorded.
I’m a bit curious about that as well. The only place I could see it happening is if were something along the lines of “If it will help, I can match his deal in writing and I can grab you three or four extra air filters (they can be expensive). I can’t put it in writing because then you’ll get billed for them, but I can grab them out of the warehouse when I do the install”
I’d be okay with that.
Now, if it were something like promising free refrigerant or electrical/gas hookups or pulling permits or some other necessary part of getting this done, I wouldn’t talk to them unless it was in writing.
As for the ethics, it’s probably about as unethical as getting screwed over for promising something and not getting it. The problem is, he can promise you something verbally and not provide it and not get in trouble, but if you (illegally) record him and throw it in his face, you can get in trouble. About all this recording can do is let you prove to your friends that he promised you something and didn’t provide it.
I suppose you could play it back for him or maybe his boss and then delete it, but that’s not really going to prove anything since if it’s illegal in your state you won’t be able to take any action.
The few things that they couldn’t put in writing had to do with cleaning up, length of time of work, etc. The contractor I chose has an A+ Better Business Bureau rating. The owner takes quite a bit of pride in 100% satisfaction of customers. They do indeed provide most guarantees in writing. But the owner can’t control every employee and team. So I figured that if I had a recording, I could let the owner hear it as proof should there be any dispute.
BTW, what I did is apparently legal in NJ and NY. As long as one person knows the meeting is being recorded, it’s fine.
From an enforcement perspective, some contracts will have a clause that says the written contract is controlling, and no verbal promises will be considered.
I’m not sure exactly what you’re envisioning using this for.
Given that this is something completely legal, but he doesn’t want it in writing, it seems to me he’s not really promising. He’s saying “I think it will take this long, but I’m not going to put it in writing because something out of my control might happen, so I can’t guarantee it.”
So if it does take longer than he thought and you play him the recording, he’ll say “Yeah, something out of my control happened, just like I told you was a possibility. That’s why I didn’t guarantee it in writing. What do you want me to do?”
Assuming that the only purpose of the recording is to clear up anything that was promised verbally, why would it be unethical? If anything, it potentially prevents something unethical happening to me.
Verbal promises are meaningless in most situations. When there is a written contract, that’s what the courts look to in deciding. In my state recording the calls is legal if one party is aware of the recording. Judge Judy would listen to the calls. I’m not so sure of circuit and district courts though. The fact is that you would have to sue for anything and that would cost a bundle. What kind of little promises could he be making that would be worth it? See, the obvious thing is that if he won’t put it in writing, he very possibly does not intend to deliver it. The very fact that the contractor suggests doing something off-the-record, below-the-belt, or sub-rosa, should be a red flag.
Here, corporations and goverments need to notify if they will record, but a private citizen can record freely, and as long as one of the parties to the conversation was aware of the recording, it’s all good.
Wait, what? Why couldn’t this be agreed to in writing? My husband does contract work, and this stuff is always both in his initial bid and in the contract itself.
The problem is that often times they weren’t confused when writing the contract, they knew exactly what they were doing. If it’s some small sketchy operation they might have purposely left off a “clean up date” so they they wouldn’t have to clean anything up. They could keep telling you that someone will be by next week only to not show up. Sure, you could pull out your iPhone and say “Here, you said to me that you’d be cleaned up by May 31st” and he could say “Yeah, but it’s not in the contract so tough shit”
If it’s a good place that you trust (especially if you’ve had friends that liked them). I probably wouldn’t worry about something like clean up, but I’d be curious why they’d leave something like that off. My guess is that they’re placing more importance on getting you up and running and less on coming back for the garbage. It’s probably also easier to collect from someone that has a running furnace even if there’s still some garbage in their basement then from someone who has a half done project.
If you’re worried about it, tell them you won’t sign the contract unless they put in some deadlines. Even if you give them more time then neccesary. Maybe from start to finish (and cleaned up) a full week for what should be a two day project. Tell them you’re worried about going without heat/AC for too long or that you don’t want a mess in your basement for 3 months and see what they do.
My other guess is that they do emergency work. That is, if they’re in the middle of doing an AC installation for you on a 65 degree day and the freezers in the supermarket go down, the mechanic is going to go to that job and come back and finish your job tomorrow.
Oak is right. Check the contract, it probably says something like
Then it will set forth the manner of making any necessary amendments and list the authorized persons to make such agreements.
This is usually found above the signature line, or possibly in the “Order of Precedence” before the listing of documents and attachments.
That being said, I totally don’t get all the problems with recording. I routinely record negotiations, mainly because I have to write a negotiation memo to reduce it all to writing. I see absolutely nothing at all unethical about recording a business discussion. There is no assumption of privacy in my mind when I am talking about business. It’s not like you set up a camera in a bedroom or bathroom.
There have been a very few times when I went back to a recording to ascertain whether the other side’s understanding of the discussion was bona fide, and I can usually hear how the misunderstanding occurred. This leads me to a much softer approach toward the resolution, and I can’t think of a time when it has worked against the other side.
I know in the state of New Jersey, it’s legal to record conversations as long as one person knows they are being recorded. I can record a conversation between you and me without telling you and it would be legal evidence in court. I could not do the same with a conversation between you and Cecil Adams.
I don’t think it’s unethical, but I agree that it’s pointless. I’ve found the best way to get contractors to live up to their verbal promises is my wife’s old trick of taking notes during the meetings, and making sure the other party sees her taking notes.