Is there more proof of Jesus than Evolution?

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
I didn’t know what I was before. It’s good to have a label to go by, though the association with D&D and Water Closets is not pleasing. I hope you will find some of the comments rare enough. As for gravitas, you will think gravitas when you meet the Creator. Hope you’re serious about Him. You can dismiss and ignore me easily enough, but eventually you will have to come to grips with the Truth. You will either be broken or crushed. I prefer falling on the Rock and being broken rather than having the Rock fall on me and being crushed. So don’t concern yourself overmuch about me, but please consider seriously the claims of Jesus Christ.
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Yes, one of the more predictable denouements to the WC threads. When you can’t argue on substance, issue dire warnings that everyone’s going to hell.

[QUOTE=Voyager]
Of course my understanding is incomplete. I’m not a biologist, only married to one, and no one know yet, for instance, just how many levels of indirection there are between DNA and protein synthesis - since it seems that there are unexpected intermediate steps. Not surprising since DNA got understood just over 50 years ago and the human genome got decoded only a few years ago.

But my understanding is a lot better than yours. Speciation does NOT happen when two unrelated animals mate. Mules are possible since horses and donkeys are still in the process of diverging. Speciation happens when a population changes enough so that its members can no longer breed with the parent population - and it is sometimes not a clearcut thing, as the horse/donkey example shows.

Never seen the feathered dinosaurs? The intermediate form of the whale? Are you familiar with the great similarities between bird and dinosaur anatomies?
Do you think for some reason that evolution says a snake will suddenly sprout wings?

A ton of intermediate forms have been discovered (and all are intermediate forms or dead ends.) Fish with legs, for instance. Elephant seals spend all their time in the water, except when they mate, and then they are incapable of eating on the land. Great design, that. It makes sense if they are on their way to becoming totally aquatic, and someday, if they make it, will learn how to breed and give birth in the ocean - like the whales. Of course there is no direction here, they may learn to eat on land, or may go extinct. But they are a perfect example of a potential intermediate form.

As I said above, this is a completely ignorant definition of speciation. And of course the spin off species looks very similar, since change is slow.

Darwin, ever cautious, did say that much was missing from the fossil record 150 years ago. Happily, a lot of fossils have been found since then, and they all support his theory. I trust you are not accusing archeologists of making up things - that would be a very slimy thing to do.

Hey, you’re the one claiming that a few species on the ark 4,000 years ago became lots more species very shortly later. Plus, no one needs faith in evolution. We got DNA, we got fossils, we got lab experiments. You got nothing except a bunch of Bible thumpers wailing “don’t confuse me with the facts! I got my myths!” Pretty poor company.

Have you ever read a real book on evolution, or are you going with tracts by creationist liars. You don’t seem to have a clue as to what speciation really is, just to start.
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The formation of new species as a result of geographic, physiological, anatomical, or behavioral factors that prevent previously interbreeding populations from breeding with each other?

Species - 1. a class of individuals having some common characteristics or qualities; distinct sort or kind. 2. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species. ???

Some “scientists” must be slimy, like the ones who keep putting the myth of gill slits in human fetuses in the text books. See link - http://www.rae.org/gillslit.html

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Yes, one of the more predictable denouements to the WC threads. When you can’t argue on substance, issue dire warnings that everyone’s going to hell.
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No.

Just those who love a lie to the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Rev. 21 & 22

Thump!

Sorry, I couldn’t resist the temptation to thump it just one more time.

You keep ignoring the substance or imagining your own brand. See http://www.rae.org/gillslits.html

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
Just those who love a lie to the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Rev. 21 & 22
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Tossing people into a lake of fire ? If that’s the sort of thing God does, perhaps we should join with the devil.

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
You keep ignoring the substance or imagining your own brand. See http://www.rae.org/gillslits.html
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A link from a from a creationist website ? Ignorance and insanity, free on the Web ! Come up with a real cite. You might even be correct, but I certainly won’t take claims by a creationist seriously; by definition, they are either a liar, deluded or ignorant, and therefore not good sources of information.

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
It takes as much faith to believe in common descent as it does to believe common Designer.
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Again, you can repeat catchphrases like this as much as you want: it isn’t an argument. Common descent is something that can be demonstrated from first principles using evidence, which is simply not the same process as faith.

Care to define what a “true” transitional species is? I have to warn you that in general, when I ask creationists this, they end up defining something that evolution never suggests would exist: like a half-pig, half-frog. There are countless transitional fossils: as true as any other. You just have to first be willing to understand what common descent implies and how they fit in and what they would then be like.

Again, Tiktaalik is a textbook example of a transitional species.

So is Achaeopteryx, by the way, though some creationists have taken to trying to confuse debates over whether it is in the direct lineage of birds with a debate over whether or not it is transitional. Again: that’s a demonstration of the lack of understanding of what a transitional fossil is and what it is useful for demonstrating.

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
I didn’t know what I was before. It’s good to have a label to go by, though the association with D&D and Water Closets is not pleasing. I hope you will find some of the comments rare enough. As for gravitas, you will think gravitas when you meet the Creator. Hope you’re serious about Him. You can dismiss and ignore me easily enough, but eventually you will have to come to grips with the Truth. You will either be broken or crushed. I prefer falling on the Rock and being broken rather than having the Rock fall on me and being crushed. So don’t concern yourself overmuch about me, but please consider seriously the claims of Jesus Christ.
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Are you saying that acceptance of evolution is incompatable with salvation?

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
Didn’t somebody make Nebraska man out of a pig’s tooth or something like that? Wasn’t “Lucy” found in pieces and put together using a lot of imagination? Weren’t the drawings showing the development of human embryos losing their “gills” proven to be a hoax even in the 19th century, yet they are still used in “modern” biology textbooks.
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As Diogenes the Cynic has pointed out, we have now come to the numbingly boring part of the thread that seems to be repeated every time a Wandering Creationist stumbles through, complete with dire warnings about how God is going to get us for actually follwing the evidence to conclusions. This is also the point where I generally have to note the irony of a person who claims to espouse the “Truth” based upon the bible having to resort to a violation of the Commandment to refrain from bearing false witness in order to buttress their rant.

One discovery of a swine tooth suggested the possibility of a human ancestor in North America. (Several teeth in humans and swine are similar.) However, the discovery was challenged by the paleontological community as soon as it was submitted for examination and in fewer than 11 months, even the person who had proposed the connection between that tooth and human descent had withdrawn the claim, yet here we are 80 years later with Creationists making their same false claim that someone “made” a human ancestor out of a single tooth from the wrong species.

The Lucy bones were not complete, but they were all found together and it required no great imagination to “put them together” as they form a nearly complete proto-human skeleton.

Haeckel’s gilled humans was put aside by biologists a very long time ago. It is not a part of the scientific discourse. Unfortunately, textbooks are often not written by practicing scientists, and Haeckel’s illustrations continue to show up in such works, despite protests by many scientists.

So, in order to point out the “errors” of science, you have felt a need to post two lies and a criticism of textbooks (pretending that scientists support the error in those texts). It is hard to take seriously the claims of someone who wants to call down God’s wrath by breaking one of God’s commandments.

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
Looks like they all look like their ancestors.
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Really? You can’t have looked that hard or thought that deeply about many of them then. Because all of them have features that are NOT like their ancestors: that’s what makes them transitional.

Look again. They all have key morphological differences. To a layperson who might only know things in terms of “fish” or “pigs” these elements may not be immediately apparent, but I assure you they are they, quite intelligible, and quite compelling.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. All of these examples demonstrate the directions of ancestral lineages, and they do it by showing features that characteristic of one older branch of life with the addition of a cluster of features that are characteristic of a later branch. I don’t know how things could get more direct or compelling than that.

I don’t think anyone can actually look at the whole of the fossil record, then compare it with the genetic record, and then compare those things with virtually every other piece of evidence we have to check to see if the story makes sense, see that every little piece lines up exactly, and then claim that its just all faith and guesswork. The only explanation is either denial or simply refusing to spend the time to realize exactly what all the evidence is and what it looks like as a whole.

At one point, someone claimed to have discovered another hominid based on a tooth. That might sound really crazy to you, but that’s because you don’t understand taxonomy and the uniqueness of traits. In this case, however, the evidence was weak, and most scientists were skeptical throughout. And, of course, it was scientists that definitively showed that the tooth was not hominid at all. So I’m not sure what your point is.

The original Lucy was certainly in pieces, but she wasn’t pieced together by imagination: she was pieced together by a lot of painstaking methodology on bone structure and muscle attachments (which are preserved to some extent on bones) and exact site locations and so on. Furthermore, there have been any number of other Lucies found to confirm that we got things right.

No. Haekel’s drawings were inaccurate, but they were not hoaxes, and what you’ll find in modern biology textbooks are lithographs and other photographic representations of embryos. Haekel’s own theory of recapitulation was another that was always controversial and eventually tossed out, BY SCIENTISTS, but the basic idea of what embryos show: i.e. a wealth of information demonstrating common origins in a branching pattern, is perfectly solid without Haekel’s flawed drawings. If anything, the real ones are even more compelling given what we know of genetics and evo-devo.

Humans don’t lose gills (though there’s more to it as I discuss below) but did you know that dolphin embryos form leg buds and then lose them? That’s sort of hard to explain without common descent, but obvious with it. And dolphins /whales have even been found with rare atavisms in which those leg buds aren’t re-absorbed, but instead develop into legs… which just so happen to be physiologically matched up in the basic tetrapod way to the hip. Quite a stunning coincidence. Humn beings have atavisms as well, but in their case they are tails: real tails that fail to reabsorb in the same sort of way. Why do dolphins have atavisms reflecting a past ancestry with legs, and humans have atavisms reflecting a past ancestry with tails, and not the other way around or some other totally random elements? Common descent makes the reason pretty darn clear.

As usual, you have a creationist claim that involves mixing a whole lot of nonsense up together, pretending that information 80 years out of date is current, and so on. Yes, human embryos do not have “gill slits.” But what they DO have, is pharyngeal arches. In fish these structures become the basis gills, in humans they don’t, but the fact remains that these are basic embryonic structures that are characteristic of vertebrate embryos and both fish embryos and human embryos have them. And, wouldn’t you know it, the same basic path of development that these arches go through just HAPPENS to be exactly what the supposedly non-existence transitional fossils demonstrate: the modification of simpler parts from what used to be gill and jaw structures to the more complex ear bones and other structures of reptiles and then mammals. What a coincidence! You might even say that it takes a great deal of faith to deny the very very obvious implication.

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
Looks like they all look like their ancestors. Like I didn’t see any, in my cursory examination, no pun intended, of what I would call changes from one type of organism to another. These all look like things that a breeder could accomplish in a finite, maybe even small number of generations, but the fish are still fish and the pigs are still pigs.

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Ummm you didn’r make much of an examination. I’ll hightlight a small section of the list:

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Transition from primitive bony fish to amphibians:
o Paleoniscoids again (e.g. Cheirolepis)
o Osteolepis – one of the earliest crossopterygian lobe-finned fishes, still sharing some characters with the lungfish (the other group of lobe-finned fish). Had paired fins with a leg-like arrangement of bones, and had an early-amphibian-like skull and teeth.
o Eusthenopteron (and other rhipidistian crossopterygian fish) – intermediate between early crossopterygian fish and the earliest amphibians. Skull very amphibian-like. Strong amphibian-like backbone. Fins very like early amphibian feet.
o Icthyostegids (such as Icthyostega and Icthyostegopsis) – Terrestrial amphibians with many of Eusthenopteron’s fish features (e.g., the fin rays of the tail were retained). Some debate about whether Icthyostega should be considered a fish or an amphibian; it is an excellent transitional fossil.
o Labyrinthodonts (e.g., Pholidogaster, Pteroplax) – still have some icthyostegid features, but have lost many of the fish features (e.g., the fin rays are gone, vertebrae are stronger and interlocking, the nasal passage for air intake is well defined.)
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This is series not only shows very clear examples of these supposidly mythical transitional fossils (that is the transition from one species to another), buts show the transition from fish to something that is not only not a fish but not an aquatic mammal at all, to an air breathing amphibian.

Gill slits, human ears, hey wait a minute… didn’t Kevin Costner already do that in “WATERWORLD”?

Y’all still arguing evolution? I recall an experiment where scientists took a species of minnow, one with a fast reproductive generation, and introduced a sample of these fish into a different environment. Several years later these fish had evolved various changes in their anatomy to survive in their new location.
Physical proof of Jesus’ existence? hmm, other than a few letters, there’s just not any. But then, that’s the case with most people noted throughout history. We don’t have the actual physical remains of many of our known leaders and/or famous personalities but we accept their existence.
I don’t think too many people even deny Jesus actually lived. But proof? sorry, it’s just not there

kinda got away from the OP huh?

It’s been a while since we had a creationist that ran the full gamut of predictable arguments, including the ‘God’s gonna burn you’ one.

Almost am I persuaded to sponsor this one to join. Almost.

I just felt like pointing out to srmclauren that actually the board probably has a majority of christian posters. Even some of the posters to this thread are christian (i’m not, but there are some). We’re arguing evolution with you, not the existence of God, and the two are not incompatible.

Anyway, my main question was; what about my forest scenario do you think couldn’t happen? What’s impossible about it?

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
The formation of new species as a result of geographic, physiological, anatomical, or behavioral factors that prevent previously interbreeding populations from breeding with each other?

Species - 1. a class of individuals having some common characteristics or qualities; distinct sort or kind. 2. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species. ???

Some “scientists” must be slimy, like the ones who keep putting the myth of gill slits in human fetuses in the text books. See link - http://www.rae.org/gillslit.html
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Very good. Now tell us how that relates to two different animals breeding together.

By the way, you forgot Piltdown Man. Science is done by fallible people, the reason that science works is that everything is up for re-examination, and things change - especially ideas put forth at the beginning of a field. Now, if you followed the same practice, you’d admit that the Flood never happened and evolution did. The Catholic Church does.

I don’t think you’ve responded to even one of the points made in this thread so far. Just because you are unwilling to look at or unable to understand the evidence does not mean that it isn’t there.

BTW, you showed your lack of understanding of evolution by your comment that nothing you saw couldn’t be accomplished by breeders in a finite number of steps. You think that this is something against evolution, but it actually is in support of it. If you actually read Darwin (which will not put your soul at risk) you’d know that he used animal husbandry as evidence. Breeders have aways worked using evolutionary principles, selecting (unnaturally) the traits they wanted to encourage. In nature traits that encourage descendants get selected for. Do you think that evolution waves a magic want and turns a fish into a pig or something?

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
I didn’t know what I was before. It’s good to have a label to go by, though the association with D&D and Water Closets is not pleasing. I hope you will find some of the comments rare enough. As for gravitas, you will think gravitas when you meet the Creator. Hope you’re serious about Him. You can dismiss and ignore me easily enough, but eventually you will have to come to grips with the Truth. You will either be broken or crushed. I prefer falling on the Rock and being broken rather than having the Rock fall on me and being crushed. So don’t concern yourself overmuch about me, but please consider seriously the claims of Jesus Christ.
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No one has mentioned this to you, but Tom is a Christian - by all the evidence I see, a much better one than you are. I’m an atheist, and I say keep going, guy. A debating strategy of responding to all points with “but, but, but … YOU’LL GO TO HELL” is a lot easier to refute than an intelligent one.

Heathen scientists must be very lucky by the way, since genetic evidence found after the tree (or bush) representing common descent supported it very well. Explain that, if you can.

Interesting, the ‘You’ll go to hell’ argument, isn’t it? Because up until that one rolls out, you might almost allow yourself to believe that the creationist is arguing his case because he’s concerned for your spiritual welfare and wants you to be right with God. But as soon as the hell card is played, it becomes apparent that no such concern actually exists; it’s smug superiority all the way, and in fact he doesn’t want you to be right with God; he wants God to let him watch you being toasted.

[QUOTE=Voyager]
Science is done by fallible people, the reason that science works is that everything is up for re-examination, and things change - especially ideas put forth at the beginning of a field. Now, if you followed the same practice, you’d admit that the Flood never happened and evolution did. The Catholic Church does.
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I’m waiting to see if he’s one of those people who “answers” that question by claiming the Catholic Church isn’t Christian.

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
Keep in mind that you are talking about a very specific kind of “evolution” which is changes within a species, not changes from one species to another. There is no evidence for or chance of repeating or reproducing the latter. That requires a significant leap of faith.
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Since we have a real life creationist here, I’d like to ask a question:

Given that, by the above statement, you accept “changes within a species”, how do you know, when presented with two distinct types of animal, whether or not that mysterious barrier to evolution exists between them?

Do these distinct types correspond to any of the classical (if somewhat outmoded) Linnaean taxonomic ranks (such as species, genus, family, etc.)? I ask because you appear to promote intra-“type” variation as accounting for the various canids (dogs, wolves, foxes, coyotes) even though these are typically considered multiple species (arguable in the dog-wolf case).

So how does a creationist tell between species that fall within a single variable “type” and species that don’t?

[QUOTE=Pazu]
So how does a creationist tell between species that fall within a single variable “type” and species that don’t?
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I don’t wish to presume to answer on behalf of srmclauren (who is, of course, still completely free to answer), but speaking as a former YECreationist, the way that creationism deals with this issue is to try to stifle inquiry long before the question arises.

[QUOTE=srmclauren]
It takes as much faith to believe in common descent as it does to believe common Designer. You can make claims and create “evidence” to support them, but there is not a shred for a true transitional species. I might choose to remain ignorant of some of the “scientific” evidence presented for common descent just as many of you choose to ignore a common Designer. Show me a transitional species and I’ll begin to listen, but please don’t make it any of the same old tired arguments that have been made up by guys who want to make a name for themselves by forcing the data to fit their preconceived notions. (That’s what creationists do.)
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All species are transitional species.

To imply otherwise assumes that evolutionary processes have a specific morphologic conclusion as a goal, which is not the case.

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
I don’t wish to presume to answer on behalf of srmclauren (who is, of course, still completely free to answer), but speaking as a former YECreationist, the way that creationism deals with this issue is to try to stifle inquiry long before the question arises.
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From my experience, this is true too. :frowning:

However, I have heard of some creationists coming up with classifications like “baramin” to sidestep this issue, and I was curious to hear more about it.