Is there really any reason to NOT abandon use of national flags?

Back in the 10th and 11th centuries, it was a very big deal when the Holy Roman Emperor would prohibit a city state from displaying its banners and insignia. Frederick the Great was a terror in this regard, putting a ban on Milan, Genoa, etc., usually for the crime of sending troops to oppose him…

Today, few Americans pay much attention to state flags, and most of us find the idea of city flags to be vaguely silly…

In times gone by, personal heraldry was of the highest importance; today, it’s a quaint and antiquated bit of esoteric lore, of interest to a small minority of historians and re-enactors.

(“You mock my banner of three Grebe vert rampant on a field thistly or? You must die!”)

Where I work, people have gone completely flag-happy, putting them up everywhere they can. I have retaliated, silently and perhaps subtly, by putting up a small United Nations flag in my cubicle.

(Does anyone remember the silly 1980’s “Captain America” villain, “The Flag Smasher?”)

Trinopus

And that’s exactly what I was addressing, greck. To me, “we keep alive a tradition just because it’s a tradition” isn’t all that valuable.

You seem to be making your suggestion with a certain sense of contempt for those who “wave the flag”. Is that limited to politicians or the common people as well? It has been suggested earlier that traditions die hard and as such serve a purpose in peoples lives. I hardly equate sacrificing one’s first born with waving the flag of their nation by the way.

For most people, hanging their flag on their house makes them feel good. It is a focal point for them to spend 30 seconds thinking about what the flag represents whether that be freedom, their loved ones who served or possibly even died. What’s wrong with that? Why would you even suggest that they stop? What would it accomplish?

It is easy to be smug on the internet. The SDMB is full of all kinds of “enlightened” smuggness that about makes me puke from time to time. There are normal people out there who value traditions such as flag veneration, so may I suggest that we leave them be?

If there were no flags, what direction should people at a ballgame face when the national anthem is played?

Americans are kind of bizarrely obsessed with symbols. Seems a little loopy to me to have more respect for the symbols of America than its citizens.

Well, they can’t pass a law against burning a flag, (nor should they) but I would wager that there is a law on the books somewhere that prohibits one from lighting someone else on fire. I think the respect is in the right place.

Yes, him nonwithstanding (you’re forgetting that Key wrote about the war of 1812, not the Revolutionary War. In addition, the story of its composition is oft misunderstood: the same flag did not fly through the night, and that would have been silly: they flew a much smaller storm flag through the night: they hoisted the now famous flag in the morning as soon as the weather cleared, and THAT was what Key saw from his vantage point 8 miles away) Key thought the war was the fault of the U.S. and that we deserved to lose it: he wasn’t exactly mr. patriotism, and his song was not by any means immediately popular. It was not adopted as the national anthem until 1931. It wasn’t popular in the military until 1890, when the army and navy bands popularized it (it’s always been a better big band tune than a easy to sing anthem).

As I said, the flag wasn’t flown in the Revolutionary War, all patriotic pictures to the contrary (fife player, Delaware crossing, etc. many of which, ironically, were painted not to inspire Americans, but to inspire Europeans to revolt like the Americans had) Not a single land battle in the Rev war was fought under it. The only well known hero who fought under the flag was Captain John Paul Jones on the Bonhomme Richard (and even a number of silly myths abound about that)

Betsy Ross did not create it. It wasn’t flown from government buildings. It wasn’t up in the schools. It didn’t appear in newspapers or paintings. John Adams and Ben Franklin didn’t even know what the flag looked like even a few years after it was official established: describing to foriegn dignitaries as having alternating red white and blue stripes. Even though its look was set by Congress, people gave little heed to its design for decades: you’ll find military and militia flags from that era that look nothing alike, from the number of star points to their arrangement to the number of stripes on the flag. No one really gave it much attention. When the idea came up in Congress to amend the flag with more stars for additional states, there was a huge cry that it was not a matter worth the time of Congress, and it was passed just because that was the quickest way to move on to other business.

It wasn’t officially carried until the Mexican American War. The marines did not adopt it until 1876. The calvary didn’t until 1887: Custer’s men never carrried it into battle, as has been variously portrayed regardless.

The idea of countrymen worshiping a flag didn’t arise until mid-Civil War, when national symbols of unity were deemed important for garnering support and patriotism and stopping people from joining the rebellion. And it didn’t really catch on until proto-facism became the worldwide norm: the idea that everyone must worship their state and its symbols. As you can read in public statements of the Daughters of the American Revolution, the major emphasis on these patriotic traditions was to try and turn the hordes of immigrants into proper Americans and try to ensure their loyalty. This even sort of exists to this day in the citizenship tests that demand knowledge from prospective citizens about obscure patriotic rituals that few naturalized citizens have any knowledge of.

Schools were not required to fly it until 1890. There was no pledge until 1892 (and then it was a very very different pledge than we say today). Saluting the flag didn’t begin until the Spanish American War in 1898. Flag Day came in 1916. And the flag code didn’t start until 1942 (when we stopped saluting the flag with a raised palm because it was too similar to the Nazis), and wasn’t even federally recognized until 1976.

The fact is, the people of the Revolutionary era were not as big into sacred national symbols as we are today. That may be hard to grasp, but to people of that era patriotism meant doing things, not saluting things. Flag worship is an entirely modern development.

Well, I could say that you could just pick up any decent history of the flag, as there are many. But Milo Milton Quaife’s The Flag of the United States (1942) is an old standard. You can also verify the dates I gave (like when the marines adopted the flag) since they are simple matters of public record.

Thanks Apos! I asked, you delivered!

Actually, I found Switzerland to be far more flag-obsessed than the USA. When I was in little town of Einsiedeln a few years ago there was a flag on just about every building.

Ed

I could be said that as the country has grown, and years passed by patriotism has been defined by remembering the past more than doing things. Right or wrong? That is something everyone else needs to decide.

There’s really nothing right or wrong about the difference I think, just as long as we remember that there WAS a difference: that the people of the Revolutionary era were not just like us today, only without Tv. They had very different ideas about federalism, nationalism, and symbols, among other things. Patriotism is today also about doing things, but there is just also a huge amount of the ritualistic mixed in.

Something like 15,000 Americans get killed every year by other Americans. I don’t have a statistic for flags, but I’ll bet it’s lower.

The argument that regimental standards look nothing alike doesn’t fly (:wink: ), really.
They are meant to be distinctive to the unit. Usually taking their main colour from the facing of the regiment’s uniform, they must be instantly recognisable to the memebers of the regiment.
The designs on them would be rife with symbolisms.
This was the practice in all other countries during this aera.
Besides the regimental standard a national flag would be carried into battle.
Wether the young United states carried a national flag I don’t know. Indeed, It wouldn’t have been the stars&stripes as we know it today. Notwithstanding that it took a while before the national flag chrystalised into the stars&stripes there are contenders for attempts at it.
Even in that period there were rules on how standards were to be treated (and they were very important to the men serving under them (or as trophies). At least in other countries and it would seem logical that the newly independants would simply continue the customs.

Have a look at some revolutionary flags.

It’s our emotional attachment to traditions that allow us to give a shit about them. The flag is a tangible representation of that emotional attachment (for most people this is very helpful, kind of like having a picutre of their wedding).

The flag is part of our culture, and is part of the culture of any nation. Culture is reason enough to keep alive a dogmatic tradition (although I don’t agree that the flag doesn’t have actual practical applications).

We do use them in battle: The olympics, the world cup, any international sporting event. In fact, the flags make the events more interesting.

Flags can be used as a symbol of a nation where language cannot. I know what the chinese flag looks like, but wouldn’t know how to recognize the chinese character for “china” for example.

You are confused. We’re not talking about regimental standards. Battle flags were common, and they ARE what soldiers in the Rev war marched under (strangely, many were just minor variations on British flags, and indeed Old Glory is itself something of a minor variation). I’m talking about the flags used as “the” flag post-Congressional definition (and it was a pretty clear definition). The point is, no one really paid attention to those definitions: it wasn’t important to people because no one took them to have any deep symoblic significance the way we do today.

And, again, this is not surprising, because very few early Americans knew what the national flag even looked like, or saw it around, ever. It just didn’t have the place in American society that we think of it always having had. The idea of flying a national flag used primarily for identifying merchant ships (and only later identifying troops in battle) on your front porch was as out of place in that era as… front porches.

Our conception of things is colored by myths that came later, and famous paintings and myths that depict our own expectations backwards in time.

Really? Where? The only people who “wave the flag” for whom I have contempt are the politicians who are doing it, not out of patriotism, but to save their oh so precious careers.

See above.

Well, there’s tradition and there’s tradition. This particular traditon of “flag worship” is what’s at issue in this thread, not tradition per se.

Well, neither do I. My point is that “just because we’ve always done this” isn’t exactly a really intelligent reason to do something that’s essentially not very intelligent-- that something being worshipping a flag.

[qutoe]For most people, hanging their flag on their house makes them feel good.
[/quote]

Fine. Let them feel good. What I have an issue with is the folks who want to require everyone else join them in flag worship.

And, oddly enough, that’s almost never brought up until well into any discussion on this issue. That tells me that it’s the worship of the flag, not what it represents, that those folks are holding onto. Oh, btw, I’ve served & am retired from the US Navy, so don’t bring up any “if you had served” comments.

Nothing wrong with it when they do it for themselves. But when they start demanding others bow to a particular symbol the way they demand (“anti-flag desecration amendment,” etc.), then that’s a problem.

Get rid of one way the majority could tyrannize the minority.

Then go puke and avoid the place if you dislike it that much.

Well, I’m a normal person and I think flag veneration is silly and juvenile. Thus my queries in the OP.

Well you used them as an example that there was no ‘the’ national flag.

Well there wouldn’t be much knowledge of other countries’ flags, so it’s logical they would build on what they did know and see in their harbours. The stripes might possibly have been inspired by the Dutch naval ensign.

It didn’t state where and how the stars should be arranged and there were versions with the red-white-blue stripes, like the dutch ensign.

Not like today, no. But it was the period in which the very idea of nation was born. The national flag wasn’t ‘the’ symbol of a nation to the extent it is now. There were other symbols as well, like the phrygian cap, the liberty pole or Roman inspired symbols. Symbols were very much important and a flag lends itself well to symbolism (and is easy to display and carry around). From day one people wanted something unifying. cite

With the rise of nations the symbolic value of the national flag grew. The French revolution was profuse with tricolores and by the time of the liberal revolutions of 1848 everybody wanted something similar.

But there is a law against killing people, how can that be?

How do those two equate?

The smugness is that you feel you are right, which is fine with me. However you take it to the next level and claim that those who show respect to the flag are silly and juvenile.

I think the basis of this thread is silly and juvenile.

Congats on your service. I appreciate it!

I brought the focal point issue up on my second post, 5 hours into the life of your thread. I think the flag may mean a lot more to people than you may think… or agree with.