Well obviously, we’re talking about something that can never be enforced. So I’m not proposing that a person who prefers a coffee shop (or the dry cleaners, or the library, etc.) that is near the farther bus stop walk all the way back to his/her bus stop. There are a variety of reasons why someone may have to use the farther bus stop.
But to me, people should have a “good faith” policy. No one will ever be able to prove that my friend is going to the other stop for a perfectly good reason. But if the only reason is to beat the other guy to a seat, I still find it unethical.
Sure, Debaser’s example (using side streets to beat highway traffic) has merit. But to me, this isn’t the same thing. I think that my example is closer to using the shoulder while everyone else is sitting in traffic.
delphica made a good point about the liklihood of this already happening. Buses and bus stops have been around for a very long time, and there have always been a few people, like your friend, willing to walk a little further to get a seat. So if your ‘Tragedy of the Commons’ theory were true, every city would have two bus stops with people racing each other to get there first in the morning and get the seat. That hasn’t happened. Therefore your theory is bunkum. Find something more productive to think about!
It seems that you are the only one who feels that way Jackknifed, so I guess since you are the ONLY one that we all must change to accommodate YOU.
I think I sniff the problem with your reasoning. You are either studying economics now or are a practicing economist. Either way you should know that your analysis is based on a series of assumptions in a closed environment.
Without changing this into an environmental argument, your example of the polluting companies is also flawed. You assume that the government does nothing about the situation. That levels of pollution continue growing on an exponential scale. That all pollution is equally bad. Wrong on all counts. Government may not stop pollution, but it does tax it and fine companies that pollute in excess. But I don’t want to turn this into an environmental argument- I realize that the current system is far from perfect.
I think you’re just bitter that your friend is getting a seat and you aren’t so you need to rationalize your bitterness. Doesn’t the fact that no one agrees with you tell you anything?
Then you have to answer my earlier questions (it would be unethical not to ):
If someone lives equidistant from two stops, is he morally entitled to use either?
If one is 10 feet further away , does that mean he’s unethical to use it?
Is it the responsibility of every adult to measure these distances?
But the shoulder is illegal for everyone.
Side streets and pedestrians walking to bus stops are perfectly legal.
It’s not the same thing at all.
Bunkum, eh? Do you really think that this hasn’t happened anywhere, ever? You think that in all of history, there has never been a bus stop that was shut down because people started migrating to a farther one to get a better seat? I’d bet anything that it’s happened somewhere. It’s just hard to find a cite on these types of things.
The only argument I can see with any validity is that walking to an earlier bus stop is, in a sense, cutting in line ahead of people who are already at the original bus stop. They got there first, but you end up on the bus ahead of them. I think most people would agree that walking to a point 20 yards upstream from the original bus stop, flagging down the bus (assuming you could), and getting on, would be unethical.
However, I still don’t think that argument holds any water.
I once worked in a poorly designed high-rise office building which had insufficient elevator capacity for the number of workers in the building. My office was about halfway up. At lunch time, by the time an elevator reached my floor it would be full from the people who worked in the floors above mine. I had a choice, I could waste half of my lunch hour waiting for an elevator with space available for me, I could hike the stairs and get all hot and sweaty, or I could catch an elevator going up, ride it to the top and then all the way back down again. Sometimes I took the stairs, other times I rode the elevator up to assure myself of a space. Does that make me unethical?
I lived for 33 years in North London (my parents have lived there for over 80 years).
The only bus stops that have changed in our living memory was when they widened the road, or put an underpass in. (Routes change, bus stops don’t.)
I think you overestimate the amount of money bus companies have, plus the planning permission they need. They are certainly not going to spend money because of some hypothetical pensioner being delayed!
Gah, I posted to this earlier, but those hamsters have been hungry today.
Jackknifed, I am about as sure as one can be that this has never happened. Why? Because the very reason people get the bus is that they do not want to / are not able to walk. Hence, they will not walk the extra two blocks to get a seat. Presumably your friend does this because he wants to sit and read, or doesn’t like strap-hanging, or something, but most people don’t care enough about that to do enough about it. Thus, even if your friend walks those two blocks, everyone else is not going to start following him.
(Unless he has some sort of Austin Powersesque mojo and all the women follow him screaming).
Jackknifed, how often do you, personally, use buses?
Jackknifed,
I’m still waiting for an answer to my question, too. Which of the three bus stops should I use? The one furthest from me, the one closest but earliest on the route, or the middle one? Or should I walk to a bus stop about a mile further along the route? I have walked home from it after a mishap, and it’s within easy walking distance most days.
Also, here’s one other factor to consider. I caught the bus at the first stop this morning. There was one other woman at it, and no one at the other 2. If I’d caught the bus at one of the others, it would have had to stop twice, stopping traffic behind it twice. Which is more ethical – catching the bus at the furthest stop in but inconveniencing/harming other drivers twice or catching it at the furthest stop out, but only inconveniencing drivers once?
By the way, my city’s public transportation is about to make some major cutbacks due to a rather large budgetary shortfall. They’re eliminating some runs and routes, but no bus stops.
I’m sorry, but this is ridiculous nitpicking. If we want to get right down to it then, EVERYTHING we do that benefits ourselves is unethical.
I’m as big a bleeding heart liberal as you can get, and I don’t see anything wrong with this. In fact, I think it’s a neat idea, and it also ensures that your friend gets a little exercise in the bargain.
Besides, he’s ONE person-surely he doesn’t take up too much room.
While in the short term, you are doing “wrong” by circumventing the lines at the store, if we take a longer view, you are working toward the greater good–if more people skipped the regular lines, the store would realize that customers don’t like to wait, and open more registers. In the same fashion, if everybody walks to earlier stops to get a seat, then the bus company will realize that the buses are overcrowded and add more bus service!
(I think my logic is very flawed, but damned if I can figure out how! )
I’m still curious to see whether or not Jackknifed is an economist or not. Also whether this insane and inane argument is coming from a standpoint of reason or of jealousy.
If it’s unethical why do so many people disagree with you? I bet it’s a matter of pride is all.
I think Guinastasia hits the nail on the head. From all I’ve seen of her posts she’s as far left as a person can get, and even she thinks you’re nuts!
but, does he push aside 5 year olds during the 2 block walk? I mean, does he pee on homeless people on the way? i think we might need more information to accurately evaluate the situation.
We also may need to look at the thought process and moral background of the person in question. Let me explain. If the person walks 2 block while thinking “man, if i walk 2 blocks, then that b!tch Edna won’t get a seat and she’ll have to stand until Perry Ave. BAHAHAHHAA!” see, then i would have to say that would be unethical.
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