Interesting. Awhile ago, I applied at the Asheville-Buncombe Community Christian Ministry, a nonprofit group that worked with the homeless. I stated during my interview that I wasn’t Christian, and would that be a problem? This fairly conservative group said no, but that they did have morning prayers and such; it wouldn’t bother them if I didn’t participate, but they’d still have them. In fact, they offered me the job (although the pay was significantly less than even an impoverished nonprofit lackey like me could afford to take, so I declined the offer).
I’m guessing that this group could have discriminated against me legally, but they didn’t. This warehouse group is probably counting on no one making a fuss about it – they sound totally out of line.
What exactly are “undue hardships”? I mean, if it is a religious place, and they start every meeting with prayer and such, this could create a very unpleasant work environment for someone who does not have “Christian values.”
And I do believe there is a big difference if the company is a privately owned business. Many stores and whatnot have “store policies” that contradict what state/city law may say. For example, I had a health issue a while back due to a pulled muscle at a job I worked at. State labor laws say that I can go to any doctor I want for such an injury, but store policy mandates that I’m only covered if I go to doctors they approve. I wasn’t a full time employee, so this was strickly due to worman’s comp. It’s nice for people to tell me “That’s bullshit, state law supercedes that and you should sue,” but they’d be wrong. I’d have no case, because that’s store policy, and to try and fight it would be a waste of money and time.
If this place wants to hire people with what they perceive to be a “Christian set of values,” and they are privately owned, then they have every right to do so.
I think the big question here is, do they have the right to advertise themselves as such? It’s one thing to keep it quiet and make your decisions off of your own criteria behind close doors, it’s another thing to advertise them in the paper.
I’m somewhat ambivalent about the whole thing. While I certainly don’t want a side of evangelism with my fast food, I’m not sure where the dividing line is between respecting the right that people have not to be discriminated against as individuals, and the right of freedom of association.
We don’t have Chick-fil-A in Canada, so I’m not sure how obvious it is to consumers that it’s a quasi-religious organization. I’ve heard some people suggest that there should be laws mandating disclosure about religious affiliations of businesses, so that consumers can make informed decisions. I consider that this idea was explored enough in Europe in the thirties – no need to go down that road again.
Should there be a clear delineation between church and commerce? I don’t know. It’s a tough one.
If I am not mistaken, Church’s Chicken is owned by Scientologists, (at the top, not at the franchise level.) and profits support that organization. (If this is not mere urban legend.) Do I have a problem that, if it’s true? No… because I’ve never heard of any employee being let go for being a downstat PTS OP. All nice & legal.)
I wonder where some of you are getting the idea that privately-owned companies have the right to discriminate in employment. What are they teaching you kids in civics class nowadays?
Anyway, I was waiting for one of the SDMB’s actual lawyers to come up with the goods on this one but, in their absence, I’ve been looking around at the Washington State Human Rights Commission website. Right there on the front page “creed” is listed as one of the protected categories.
Furthermore, it appears that the application question violates Washington Administrative Code 162-12-140. I can’t link directly to this because there are about 952 digits in the URL but if you follow the link from the home page -> General Info -> The Law/FAQs you can find it for yourself.
Critical1, I think you should forward this application to the HRC. It’s plainly illegal.
El Elvis the store policy you’re speaking about doesn’t conflict w/state law. You’re allowed to go to any doctor you wish. However, if you wish the companies’ insurance policy to pay for the treatment, then they have some rights to determine which doctor.
similarly, I can go to any doctor I wish - however, if I want my insurance policy to pay the max, I’ll go to the ones on their list.
rudah - what I pointed out was that the federal law applied to any company including a private one, as long as they had less than the specified # of employees, and that the applicable state law may supercede that. It’s been my experience, however, that many laws regarding employment are waived for small enough companies.
It’s not like they pray over you as they offer you your chicken sandwich. They just include in their corporate mission that they want their customers treated in a Christian manner ---- meaning the “do unto others as you would have others do unto you” sort of thing. I don’t think that’s a bad goal for any business.
While I don’t share their religion, I have a great deal of respect for the Cathy family (owners of Chick-fil-A.) Because of their religious convictions, they choose not to operate their stores on Sunday (and did so even during the Atlanta Olympics), even though this costs them a day of profits each week. That’s the sort of thing you can do if you have a privately held corporation, and are not at the mercy of a money-hungry board of stockholders. Franchisers know that this is the deal when they buy in.
I work part time for another organization whose mission statement reads “To put Christian principles into practice through programs that build healthy spirit, mind, and body for all.” Although I do not consider myself a Christian, I support the mission wholeheartedly. In my mind, “Christian principles” describes most of the general principles for being part of a good and ethical society, whether the person practicing them is Christian or not. Most staff meetings and some member events begin with a devotion and/or prayer. I bow my head in respect for the others who practice this religion.
It really does not hurt to show respect for others, even if you don’t share their beliefs.
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Then why not just say “do unto others as you would have other do unto you”? Why bring religion into it at all?
Yes, I agree whole-heartedly. And sometimes showing respect for others is not making a big deal of your own personal faith/beliefs. To specify one type of religious beliefs in a mission statement excludes other religions and implies that those religions don’t share the same values as the religion stated.
What about a private university, like Azusa Pacific in CA? On their applications they ask you to describe the nature of your personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Can’t they ask that?
Actually, as evidenced by the well-publicized lawsuit and by anecdotes in this very thread, yes they do. I haven’t met anyone who doesn’t know that. Why do some Christians insist on lying about their religion’s influence?
And what makes the concept of “do unto others as …” Christian? According to the same news site in the cite above, that little moral code is found in most all major religions, many of them predating Christianity.
as far as i am concerned, anyone in this world can think/feel/worship/lust/whatever however they want and i have absolutely no problem UNTIL!!! they begin to thrust their beliefs on me, then it is MY problem and something WILL be done about it NOW (if you want to worship trees and blow goats, leave my trees alone and if the goat does not mind go for it!).
when you decide to inflict your point of view on me it becomes my business, and if you are my boss it becomes (possibly) illegal.
the constitution assures freedom of religion, i take from that that it also assures freedom from religion.
When I applied to Hardin-Simmons University (a Southern Baptist college) in Abilene, Texas, I was told that my being Jewish was not an obstacle for enrollment. However, I would still be required to go to chapel services daily, and to take the bible classes they required for graduation. I said thanks, but no thanks.
on this one.