A lot of Dopers don’t think Harry was accurate; I’m not one of them.
I once had a similar experience, as an Amway distributor. This woman made an appointment with me to look at some beauty products. When I arrived I sat down in a chair in her living room with my literature; she came into the room in a sheer, open negligee or some such thing. I stayed all business and gave her the pitch for the products; she was interested in some of them. Before she wrote out an order, she left the room and changed into more modest attire. I said, “Shucks,” getting a laugh from her. She made the order–however, she later cancelled it.
(Explanation: She had in fact told me, before the appointment, that she was married. Apparently her husband overruled her purchase after I left. As for her alleged “exhibition,” I consider making any advances toward a married woman, to be unthinkable.)
If Maddie wants to fuck Dave, she can ask him in plain English. And vice versa. This is none of your business. Chocolate pecan pie please.
Two people who want to jump each other’s generally end up having sex.
What we have here is one person who wants to bang, and one who doesn’t. Flirting or not, Maddie doesn’t want to get it on with Dave.
Maddie clearly doesn’t associate him sex, but the stated reason for that is not because she’s disinterested in Dave specifically, but because she’s disinterested in all men generally.
Except when she’s not.
Which means maybe one day she’ll be interested in Dave?
Maddie probably figures that if she tells Dave unequivocally that they will never, never, ever, never have more than a platonic relationship, then he might withdraw from the relationship altogether.
But she owes it to him to be up-front: that *even if she might choose to enter into relationships with other guys in the future, Dave will never be one of those guys. *Until she does that, she’s being unfair to Dave. Maybe not a tease, but definitely unfair.
My call is Dave is firmly in her Friend Zone. Maddie does nude modeling, so she’s got a more casual mindset about about nudity than others. I’m not judging her on this. But the getting showered and dressed in his presence like that was at best inconsiderate and at worst teasing. And this “Lesbian Until Drunk” thing… I dunno.
He might also be what I think of as her “standby dick”; she doesn’t want him as a BF/lover yet has proprietary feelings towards him and doesn’t want him with another woman. I can’t say I really understand this but I can spot when this happens. It took me by surprise a couple of times until I figured it out.
The optimist in me thinks of the Mike Nesmith song Propenquinity. The realist in me thinks he should work on reducing that 33% attraction he has for her to Zero. Hell, Dave could ask Maddie if she has any friends she thinks might get along well with him. Because anything more than a friendship with a LUD is just asking for heartache.
Maddie may be comfortable with casual nudity but if Dave is NOT then Dave needs to tell her politely that he wants her to keep her clothes on around him because he’s not comfortable with it. If he doesn’t do that, she’s going to assume what she’s doing is OK. If he tells her that and she continues to do it then she’s a jerk, plain and simple.
I’m a straight woman who has had platonic relationships with straight men. I am cognizant that most, if not all of them, have had some attraction to me. Likewise, I’ve known a number of lesbians in my life and has platonic relationships with them. That’s OK and actually pretty normal, normal adults (and even a lot of not normal) have sexual thoughts and feelings. But mature, responsible adults in platonic relationships who want them to stay platonic need to acknowledge potential attraction and deal with it responsibly. That includes not giving mixed signals and being careful about nudity whether full or partial around the friend. Yes, you can tell your platonic friend “please don’t do that because it gives me a mixed signal” and you should.
If Maddie is “gay until drunk” and is getting drunk to the point where worrying about whether she’s been molested while unconscious is a legitimate question Maddie has issues around sexuality AND potentially a real drinking problem. Dave may not want get involved with her based on either of those two reasons.
If Dave is interested in having sex with someone he should seek elsewhere for it. If Maddie is not the one having sex with him she has no say in who does. Well, OK, she can voice her opinion but Dave is the one making the decision here, whether he is going for casual sex or seeking a long-term relationship. Maddie either has him in the “friend zone”, “sister zone”, or is planning to get drunk and have sex with him, none of which are the basis for sexual relationship IMHO. Or she gets off by toying with him, in which case I’m not sure even platonic friendship is really a good thing here.
**TL:DR - Dave needs to get a girlfriend who will have sex with him or at least not give him mixed signals who is not Maddie. Maddie needs to stop drinking for awhile and get her sexuality issues sorted out.
**
Wha? Women now have a responsibility to make disclaimers to guys is they don’t want to have axe with them?
Oh, please.
Look, like I said, I’ve been “just friends” with straight men while knowing that yes, had we both been single he would have been pursing me hoping to get me in the sack. You know what? If I had been single at the time I might have suggested sex first because the attraction was mutual. The thing is, my marriage is a long-term commitment I won’t put aside lightly. Even before I was married I wouldn’t cheat on my boyfriend of the time, and beyond that, I didn’t jump in the sack with everything that had the least attraction. Men are also capable of deciding “yes, I’m attracted but I’m not tapping that because X, Y, or Z.” Men are capable of deciding to stay in the friendzone because a particular woman might introduce him to someone who isn’t in the friendzone.
Now, platonic friendship with straight men is NOT the same as friendship with a straight woman (and my friendship with lesbians has also had a different slant). It has usually involved mutual interest in a particular hobby or activity (like flying) and 90-100% of interactions take place in that context. I make a point of introducing the spouse, and likewise if they have one I want to meet her. There have to be boundaries and they have to be respected. You can admit to attraction without acting on it.
I’ve also met men who didn’t want/couldn’t handle platonic relationships with women. Their loss, but if it’s a problem for them I’ll respect that. I distinctly remember two men who absolutely would not fly anywhere with a woman not their wife/current girlfriend unless other people were there. Well, OK, that’s their boundary, I respect that and kept the relationship as “acquaintance”. I also had a platonic friend whose romantic relationship (with someone else, obviously) went sour and it was a problem for him to associate with women strictly on a friendship basis for awhile so we put some distance between each other. When he got a new girlfriend and was getting laid regularly again he was able to resume some of those “friend zone” friendships.
Which, I think, is an important point - it’s a heck of a lot easier to keep it platonic if the parties involved are getting their sexual urges fulfilled elsewhere. Is that still “single”? Well, I dunno - depends on how you define it. Some people are more casual about sex than others.
Errr. Sex.
Taking this at face value, I can’t help but think she’s simply putting all the cards on the table: imagine for a moment that she’s being completely honest – spelling out that she only ever sleeps with guys upon getting at least buzzed if not outright drunk with them, and then proceeding to get at least buzzed if not outright drunk with him.
In other words, it’s possible that she’s not a tease and he’s not in the friend zone; that she knows exactly what she wants, and instead of toying with him is slowly and patiently saying “I habitually, and only ever, sleep with men when I’m drinking; let’s go out drinking, and then go back to my place. Are we clear? I say again: I may as well be a lesbian if I don’t at least have a buzz on; I do my best ‘heterosexual nymphomaniac’ impression if I have a buzz on; buy a girl a drink, huh?”
From the way you’ve written the OP, I get the sense that you seem to think that Maddie actually is straight (or at least, firmly bi, not just when drunk) and just claims to be a lesbian because of her bad experiences with men. No mention of her actually having relationships with women.
Anyways, the answer to the question would be some combination of #2 and #4: Dave’s in the “friend zone”, and it’s unclear what Maddie thinks/knows/feels about that.
:dubious:
I never said anything even approaching that.
Anybody on Maddie’s end of this kind of imbalanced should be open and honest. Gender has nothing to do with it.
This is it in a very important nutshell.
It seems that if Maddie wanted to get serious with Dave, she would:
- Stand in front of him stark naked and say, “Well?”
- Lead him to the bedroom, undress, get in the bed and say, “Go to it!”
- Unzip his fly, take hold of his penis and tell him insistently, “I want this!”
- Put a record of David Rose’s “The Stripper” on and do an elaborate strip act for him, as close to him as possible.
- Tell him repeatedly, "I wanna get laid!"
If he doesn’t respond to any of those, he IS a mensch.
Maddie sounds like a hot mess, and Dave sounds like a chump. I’m not judging either of them too harshly, because I’ve been both at various points on my life.
Ah, the joys of being in your twenties and drinking too much.
That’s my take, but with the caveat that people don’t always say what they mean or know what they want, and people can be inconsistent and ambivalent.
Dave has to choose:
a) continue to be a trusted friend
b) take a chance on the slim possibility that she wants more, knowing that most likely even if he does score, it’ll change their relationship and is very unlikely to last
c) they’re in a Hallmark movie, so everything will work out in the end.
PS: it’s not C.
IMHO, the term “tease” is terribly overused by many men, especially young men, and especially sexually unsatisfied men. Personally, I like women who flirt, even if they have no serious intent (which is what “flirt” means to me; if they have serious intent, it’s not flirting.) Nor does it apply to a woman who changes her mind at the last minute. Any man that can’t handle that shouldn’t get involved with women.
To cross over into foul territory takes a lot more than that. It takes specific malicious intent.
That’s pretty much what I was going to say. I doubt she had any ulterior motives, but she seems a bit insensitive. She’s evidently had conversations re: nudity taboos, so she’s got to be aware that other people have different levels of comfort with it. Walking around mostly naked in front of a guest was kind of a self-absorbed thing to do. Possibly just oblivious, but she could have been more courteous about that.
zzz
We seem to have different definitions of “single”. To me, single=not dating or sleeping with anyone else. FWBs are NOT single.
You know, I think when I was your age the term “friend with benefits” hadn’t been invented yet. The closest thing we had was “one night stands”.