Point of order: Has Maddie ever ridden the bus on the way to one of her modeling jobs?
You know, if I were Dave I’d be like “You own a car. Why am I here? Tell you what - I’ll go wait in my car and when you’re finished ‘getting ready’ you can come out (as it were) and we’ll go.”
‘Not being ready’ for something that you know about in advance is pretty much something of a f*** you IMHO.
Bob Ducca nailed this. I love the “sister zone” euphemism, having been there in the past. That said, she’s a bit of a tease, no nudity taboo or not—or she was already drunk—and I agree that she sounds like trouble. I’d have liked it if Dave asked her who she thought would be good enough for him.
The GF chimes in with: she wants him, but doesn’t know what she wants, so she’ll end up jerking him around, and he’ll end up heartbroken. So he needs to get over her.
It sounds like he could do better anyway. Why settle for someone who doesn’t know if you’re worthwhile or not?
Edit: I’m really in the mood for pumpkin pie. With a glass of Big Sky’s, Ivan the Terrible Russian Imperial Stout.
I think this is quite a common feature of the friend zone, without implying any malice on anyone’s part. It’s a combination of:
Of course, in the case of the OP, I agree with most of the posters here. She’s completely comfortable around him and sees him virtually like a sister. Especially since she’s put out there that she’s a lesbian (regardless of any episodes where she seemed to contradict that).
I’ve had friends like Maddie. Exactly like Maddie, with the near-nudity and the easy friendship. It’s just how some people are, and since I wasn’t pining for them, I never felt like I was being teased.
I mean, I’ve pined for women friends before, in my youth, so I know the difference.
So I voted Dave is a mensch and in the friend zone" but I really wanted to vote “Dave is a schmuck and in the friend zone” - Maddie seems, to me, to be accepting him at face value, and he’s been dishonest about his feelings. Well, sucks to be him.
How has he been dishonest? Must he vocalize every thought, feeling, and fantasy, even those he’s no intention of acting upon?
If he has no intention of acting on them, why is he so confused about whether or not he should have made a move?
It’s a lie of omission. His feelings for her color his feelings about their interactions, and he’s keeping it a secret. She, to me, has made it clear that she considers him a friend, not a potential lover.
Nope, I’m going to agree with those who say there’s nothing “dishonest” about keeping one’s feelings about another person to oneself.
I feel much the same way. I believe as you get older or experience these types of situations more often, you tend not to waste time and put your intentions out there a bit earlier. You more quickly recognize them and know to shift your attention elsewhere if it spirals into a guessing game, many times for your own good.
So in looking at this situation, it may be blunt, but it ultimately seems to summarize what is going on here. Personally, I don’t think there is anything wrong with being friends with Maddie, since Dave sounds like a nice guy (and doing the nice guy things), but Dave should definitely pursue the other woman he is interested in. He can still be a nice guy and Maddie will be there, unless she wasn’t being genuine, herself.
Dishonesty can exist within oneself, too. The word has a certain connotation to it, but in this context, I more take it to mean that he has some things to work out in his head, again, for his own good. Leading yourself on, then projecting, can be very damaging.
I also had a friend like that, with the super-friendly, and the bisexuality (identified as “lesbianism with exceptions”), and the pushing boundaries in regards to sexual comfort zones with pretty much everybody. And she was also not at all on my potential-girlfriend radar (mostly because of other non-reciprocated interests of mine)…
…until she started showing up naked in my bed. Apparently I had gotten so used to her general flirtiness that actual hints sent in my direction were barely perceptible above the general noise, and in effect I was friend-zoning her. At least until she crossed the subtlety horizon. #stealthbrag
So I don’t think it’s entirely out of the question that Maddie wants a little Dave action and is trying to acquire it.
Perhaps “dishonest” isn’t the right word here. More accurately, he is being inauthentic, acting in bad faith. Or, put another way, he is being dishonest to himself.
At least, that’s how I read the OP - he wants to bone her, quite badly, but says nothing, yes?
That’s pretty much where I come down. Also, some girls flirt pretty much unconsciously.
I don’t necessarily see a come-on when someone who regularly does nude modeling walks around in a towel (though her not being ready when he arrives, might indicate that she doesn’t really treat him that well and he lets her). A women telling a man that another woman isn’t good enough for him is potentially a clue that the first woman is into him, but then again could be honest, friendly opinion.
If Dave really wants to know what’s going on, he should just say “Maddie, I’m perfectly happy being friends with you, but I’m wondering if you were trying to flirt with me”. If he makes it clear that “No” is an acceptable option and won’t leave him suicidal or shaking with rage, he’ll probably get an honest answer without much jeapordizing a real friendship.
Of course, Maddie is clearly a bit of a headcase who really needs to figure out her sexuality, and my recommendation for Dave is to not have that conversation but just get out more, without Maddie.
I voted “tease” on the basis of two previous experiences similar to what is described in the OP (friends walking around half naked). I’m pretty certain they were enjoying the situation without having any intent to sleep with me. So, I’m going to assume it’s the same situation here although obviously it can’t be certain.
I’m also dubious about the claim that the girl feels perfectly natural to be naked and would just apply this principle when around her friend. There’s no doubt there are people like that (although they’re likely to be considerate, and this girl isn’t), but I’ve no doubt either that some women will use this as a pretext to deliberatly tease because they love the attention.
There’s also the possibility she’s an exhitionist.
If Maddie is interested in having sex with Dave, she she either tell Dave or make an actual move on him. As Dave’s FRIEND, I would hope she isn’t running around half naked in front of him just to tease him. And she should know Dave well enough to realize he isn’t going to make a move on her no matter how little she’s wearing. Therefore, I have to assume she was just behaving with him as she would with any platonic friend.
If Dave wonders what Maddie was up to, he could ask Maddie directly whether she was trying to initiate something. Nobody in this scenario should expect anyone else to be a mind reader.
Have you ever wanted to be in a carnal relationship with someone that you didn’t also want to be in a platonic relationship with?
A romantic relationship is NOT an add-on to a platonic relationship; it is a platonic relationship with a carnal relationship added on.
Or a carnal relationship with a platonic relationship added on.
One of us (that is, either you or I), has an idiosyncratic understanding of what “romantic relationship” means.
Missed the edit window:
Oh, the poll.
I said that my answer is more complex than can be expressed with the choices given above; I might as well explicate. IMHO, Dave is a mensch, AND Maddie is confused about what she really wants. But Dave ALSO appears to not know what he really wants. I base this on my inference that he is the one who related the tale to you, and the fact that he’s expressing his confusion about its significance to you, instead of to Maddie.
I asked for rhubarb pie, simply because I don’t get it enough. Also beer, but I’ll probably save that for after the pie, which will be accompanied by milk.
I think that most likely, Maddie is clueless. Yes, Dave is confused, but it’s not because he’s an idiot: He’s confused because he’s getting mixed signals, and he’s getting mixed signals because she’s sending mixed signals. Yes, yes, Maddie doesn’t consider nudity to be a big deal, and that’s fine… But she really ought to know that most people do consider nudity to be a big deal, and that by walking around towel-clad in Dave’s presence, she’s telling him something she probably didn’t mean to tell him.
Now, I don’t know either of these people, so it’s still possible that she does know what she’s telling him and actually means it, or that she does know what she’s telling him but is doing it just to test him and doesn’t really mean it, or that she doesn’t mean it but enjoys watching him squirm, or whatever. Or, on the other hand, maybe Dave has foolishly told her at some point in the past that they’re in the “friend zone”, and so she has good reason to think he won’t interpret her actions sexually. But I think cluelessness is probably the simplest explanation.
It’s not that; it’s dishonest if he is concealing an intention or a goal that is at odds with how he behaves. If he’s genuinely happy to be just her friend, that’s one thing. If he’s going through the motions of being friends because he’s afraid of the rejection that might come from asking her out, and he thinks that if he hangs around long enough, she’ll someday come around to wanting him, then he’s dishonest. XKCD explains it all.
Certainly, the same is true if Maddie is concealing her true intentions. I’m addressing Dave because he’s the one asking the question. But from the way you describe her, I don’t see anything in her behavior that seems out of character for the way she would act toward a friend.
Frankly, the fact that Dave is getting ticked off and thinking ill of a friend who has done nothing more than walk by in a towel strikes me as the reaction of a frustrated wannabe lover rather than someone who is comfortable with friendship.