Is this symptom in the DSM?

Factual Questions
1

I am a bit exasperated folks after another little spat with my mother, and I was wondering if a particular compulsion of hers is listed in the DSM-IV (or is it V now?) as a symptom of some recognized disorder. I’ve also seen this bizarre behavior in her mother, and it worries me that maybe I’m carrying some gene for it. My mother is mentally ill in some way; she’s been hospitalized several times.

Part of the reason I’m posting this here now is that I feel I was just witness to a particularly concise example of it, which makes relating it easier: I was at my mother’s house, and she was sick and asked me to make her a “green drink” she likes, made out of vegetables in a fancy high-powered blender. After getting the list of ingredients from her, I asked how to run the blender. The exchange that followed went something like this:

Me: How long do I blend the drink?

Her: 30 seconds.

Me: Do I run the blender on high or Low?

Her: You need to use a timer to time the blender.

Me: But do I run the blender on high or low?

Her: I already told you, you run the blender for 30 seconds.

Me: But do I use the high speed setting or the low speed setting?

Her: It doesn’t matter.

Me: Well, which setting do you use when you make the drink?

Her: I don’t know. It’s different every time.

(It may clarify to point out that this blender is the most used appliance in her kitchen. She is very familiar with it.)

Essentially, what happens is that someone will be having a rational conversation with her (or her mother) when she’ll abruptly decide to withhold some specific and useful but otherwise apparently insignificant piece of information, either by changing the subject, insisting that she already told you and refusing to repeat herself, claiming that the information doesn’t exist, or just flatly refusing to say. This will sometimes be done as bizarrely as spontaneously giving someone a specific piece of advice (“Don’t buy gas from that gas station.”) followed by a refusal to give any explanation for the advice when the obvious question is asked. (“Why not?” “You don’t need to know that.”)

The only clear pattern I’ve noticed is that it’s much more common when they are under stress- last week I picked my mom up when she called me from a pay phone saying she had a flat tire; when I got there the car was nowhere in sight, and for the first five minutes she refused to tell me where it was, only insisting I drive her to the nearest public restroom. The car turned out to be parked in front of a closed Firestone Service Center down the street, and I can’t think of any rational reason for her to have not wanted me to know it was there.

2

Are you sure she’s deliberately doing this to you? (By the way it’s still DSM-IV, V is a few years off).
Because forgetfulness and confusion are both extremely common symptoms for a myriad of problems, and though it does occur in diseases such as Alzheimer’s, Dementia, Tertiary Syphilis; it can just be simply memory loss due to aging. She may genuinely have moments where she forgets something, or is confused and may be trying to cover it up or work around the problem by avoiding the issue rather than admitting she has a problem or a new weakness to you.

Unless you can specifically determine that she’s doing such things on purpose to annoy you, and that these problems are not due to perhaps an actual problem (as she may not even realize she’s doing this), perhaps you shouldn’t be trying to blame her for her behavior just yet.
From your blender conversation, it does not come across at all that she’s being malicious or purposefully withholding information.
She may not even realize that she’s slipping in this small area, or she may realize that she doesn’t know the answer to that specific question and is trying to hide/deny that realization by working around the issue (basically avoiding letting you know she may genuinely have memory lapses or such). Your addition that she seems to do this more when she’s stressed out also certainly doesn’t cause me to deny the idea that this could be a real thing and not just something she’s doing intentionally vs. you.

But if you’re so keen on trying to find a symptom, I can take a random guess for you- though again, I am not a doctor and all those standard things apply, and I don’t think you should simply just be looking to find a symptom to fit her behavior but perhaps you should discuss this more with her and gather more information. But you want a symptom so here: I’d guess she seems confusedor if you want a more "DSM-IV sort of answer"dementia. Though if you suspect that this might be the case, or you’ve noticed a true change in her behavior, perhaps you should encourage her to seek professional help- ie: go get a physical and a checkup just to see how she’s doing physically, as there are certainly plenty physical/physiological (vs. just psychological) causes for forgetfulness or confusion and those should be checked out first by a health care provider if possible.

3

Thank you ToeJam for your thoughtful reply! I am sure that she is intentionally refusing to answer some questions, but the way you phrase your reply has made me realize that there is a subtle distinction between refusing to answer a question and withholding information. I don’t have any real hope of getting her effective medical care at this point; these sorts of behaviors are not new and as I said she has already been hospitalized many times. I’m just searching for an explanation for her motivations. “Covering up confusion” actually makes a lot of sense and I’m going to try keeping that idea in mind next time she does it.

“On Purpose” is a really fuzzy concept when it comes to mental disorders, and malice is in any situation very subjective and difficult to distinguish from apathy or inability. That’s why I’m searching for some clue as to her motivation, which is what I was hoping a DSM-IV entry would give me. For example, it was a huge help to my understanding of her behavior when I found the description of OCPD. Part of the reason I chose the blender exchange to reproduce here is that it’s the sort of minor, neutral issue where you can focus on what people are actually saying and thinking without getting bogged down by emotional associations. I am also sure that with both my mother and my grandmother, I am not the only recipient of this sort of inexplicable stonewalling. It’s especially not pretty when they start doing it to each other.

Two reasons I suspect this really is a mental issue is that first, the information supposedly withheld is so consistently mundane (in the sense that there is no apparent reason to care if I know it) and often easy for me obtain from another person, or at another time; and second, the refusal to answer a question is very often clearly obstructive to the refuser’s best interests, as in the case of several other answers along with the blender speed that my mother would not provide while I was trying to take care of her while she was sick. Like I said, it happens much more when they are under stress, which is also when other people are likely to be trying to help them.

I’m going to keep in mind what I said before, and follow up those links you gave me. Thank you again for your reply.

4

It almost sounds like a compulsive liar, except she sounds more like a compulsive give other people information avoider. My very non-professional wild-assed guess is that this is a symptom of a disorder where she doesn’t mesh well with reality - she’s got something going on in her head that doesn’t match the conversation you’re having with her.

5

I was wondering about dementia/forgetfulness as well. Many times, people with dementia seem to be able to cover up issues if they’re in very familiar situations, with problems only becoming evident when new things happen. My inlaws missed signs of my mother-in-law developing Alzheimer’s disease because she had a pretty routine life. Slips were just chalked up to forgetfulness. She showed dramatic changes when it came to new situations, though, like getting lost in an airport, thinking that a hospital that she’d been checked into for heart problems was a hotel, and so on.

When it came to finding the car, how did that happen? Did you drive past it and identify it yourself? Did she see it while you were driving past? Even if she told you where to go, I wonder if it took her a while to remember where it was, and she was covering up her memory issue by “refusing” to tell you.

6

I notice myself occasionally not wanting to be asked questions or to answer them. Sometimes the sensation is almost painful, or feels like vitality is being stolen from my body by the question asker, or is like a violation. Sometimes there might be an obvious reason why I don’t like the question, but not always. Occasionally I don’t like to be asked any questions at all. I find it quite odd though how physical the experience is. Maybe your mother is having a similar experience.

7

IANAD, etc.

My first thought was early Alzheimer’s too. Has she always done it, or did it start after age 40? Whatever it is, though, she is definitely feeling out of control and trying to regain control of the situation. That is probably the element of it which pushes your buttons. She and her Mother would appear to be controlling (and severely insecure) people who are incapable of admitting when they have a problem. Does that ring true?

Try never asking twice. If you are trying to make her drink and she witholds the information, shrug your shoulders and say, well, when you remember I’ll give it a try. See if she responds with more attempts to get control, or simply sad silence. If you’re driving the car and need her to tell you where to go next, pull over quietly and wait for her to remember. (Warning, she may be able to out-wait you. If so, make sure whatever task she wanted done doesn’t happen.) If you’ve tried this before, how did she react? If she responds with bewildered sadness, then it’s probably not manipulation.

The primary thing is, and I know it’s easier said than done, stay calm. If she is controlling and insecure then she enjoys upsetting you. If you are upset, then she is in control of the situation. She may even start every encounter by working on upsetting you, and only settle in comfortably when she has done so. Does that ring true? If so, she may be a perfectly lovely person from that point on in the encounter. This would most likely be borderline personality disorder.

Again, these are just the musings of an amateur, add salt.

8

I’ve experienced a similar feeling as well. Mine is more of a feeling of intense annoyance or bother at answering the question, even at trivial or very simple questions. I think your mother is experiencing something like jackdavinci or me, not forgetfulness or confusion.

9

I think this is getting into medical advice territory myself.

Your mother has presumably not told you what her hospital admission related diagnoses are as they would likely be of relevance, and you seem to be trying to figure them out independently from her given your OCPD thread reference. This generally doesn’t work out well with psychiatric related diagnosis.

In my view the main problem would seem to be she doesnt want to work with you directly on whatever her health issues are and you’re trying to find a way to cope with that. If Ive read too much into this I do apologise, I realise you’re trying to help - in my view direct consultation/involvement with a professional is the only solution likely to really give you an answer.

Otara