Are you sure the touch wasn’t mean to convey a message of reassurance? He could have been touching her wrist to reassure her that he didn’t mean to insult her by telling her they were out of time.
I see. And if the person touched considers all parts of their body the same, they should just suck it up because it was “only a shoulder touch”?
It just strikes me as odd, this thread going the same way as the other one I linked to. People trying their hardest to keeping “touching in the workplace” as something that should continue. Strange to me that the need to touch someone is so overpowering that “Don’t touch people at your work” requires such a rigorous defense. Just strange.
I get that that’s strange to you. Do you get that it’s equally strange to me–and to the other third grade teacher I talked with–that anyone would try to establish a blanket ban on touching in the workplace?
Analogies are tricky. But imagine if there were someone who found almost all jokes irritating, and recognized that many people find some jokes offensive, and therefore thought it reasonable to establish a blanket ban on jokes in the workplace. Why, they might wonder, would people find the need to make dumb jokes so overpowering that “Don’t tell jokes at your work” would require such a rigorous defense?
Touch occupies a similar place to humor, in my opinion. It ain’t necessary, and it can absolutely go horribly wrong; but when it’s not going wrong, it can humanize the workplace and make it a better experience for folks involved.
Yes, I understand that it’s strange to you. But I don’t understand why you feel the need to touch people in your workplace so bad, that you disagree with a “Don’t touch your coworkers without their consent” rule.
It probably won’t go down that way. Most people in HR aren’t going to view Sally as a trouble maker because she’s making valid complaint. Most people in HR aren’t going to put a black mark on touchy-McFeely’s record for something so innocuous unless there was a past history of such behavior he was warned about. HR might not be your friend but we’re usually not out to get you. Some people just aren’t comfortable confronting others on their own and it’s entirely appropriate to come to HR if they are more comfortable handling things that way.
Sure it’s similar. How about this? Go to your job tomorrow and tell this joke:
“What do you tell a woman with two black eyes? Nothing! You’ve already told her twice!”
See how it goes over.
My XO would touch my hand or arm when I was a battalion commander to get my attention. Sometimes he’d either use his hand or knee on my leg to get my attention under the table so others wouldn’t notice. My CSM and one of my First Sergeant’s (when I was a company commander) would get my attention with light touch on the elbow at meetings. All of us were male and all combat arms. I was their commander.
IME you are mistaken seeing a wrist touch as a strictly gendered thing.
I find this sort of discussion unfortunate. It suggests that there ought to be universally agreed upon rules that govern all human interaction - rather than assuming that there are various types of communication appropriate to most situations. As well-intentioned humans - or even mildly bad-intentioned, or clueless, or whatever - sometimes we will make a suboptimal choice among our options. "Sorry, I didn’t know you would react that way to my touch/choice of words/facial expression/tone of voice… But if we are to assume that we are both trying to simply co-exist here, how ought you respond as a well-intentioned human? Why would a direct response, “Please don’t do that.” NOT be the optimal first response?
But no - it would be better to simply assume that EVERYONE we interact with is hypersensitive to every possible interaction. Assume ill-motive, rather than clumsiness.
For fuck’s sake. A youngish woman, recently hired in - gasp - a subordinate position to mine asked me for some advice. I said sure, stop by. She came to my office this afternoon and - HORRORS - closed the door behind her! I had a fleeting thought of whether it was entirely appropriate for 2 people of different genders (sexist of me!) to be in an office behind a closed door - even tho she closed it. Then, fortunately, I ignored such thoughts and we had a very pleasant and productive discussion.
But we are picking up speed heading down a well-traveled path, so I’ll check out.
OMG, why does his intention make a fucking bit of difference? What difference does it make if he “meant” to be reassuring or if he “meant” it to mean “shut the fuck up” or if he “meant” it to be a purposeful transgressing of her bodily autonomy?
Look, if I don’t want to be touched by you it doesn’t matter a bit to me what you “meant.” I’m fucking used to men getting offended when I tell them to keep their hands to themselves because they “only meant to be nice” or think I’m being too sensitive. I don’t care what you think or what you intended or what you “meant” I just want you to keep your hands to yourself and NOT TOUCH ME.
DON’T TOUCH PEOPLE WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION. Why is this so hard to understand? Keep your hands to yourself. Don’t touch. A person’s body belongs to them, not to you and you have no inherent right to touch them.
Seriously, what if you have a male friend whose idea of friendly contact is to reach down and touch the head of your penis through your pants? Every time you run into this guy he touches your penis. Does it fucking MATTER that he doesn’t “mean” it in a sexual way? Does it matter that he just “means” to be friendly? Does it matter that you don’t want your fucking penis touched without your permission or are you just public property, with your penis belonging to every rando who passes? Does that seem comfortable or right to you?
And here’s the big part–YOU don’t get to decide that someone else is “too sensitive” or “taking things the wrong way.” Your opinion is irrelevant and also unwelcome unless you’ve been ASKED for it. Just like touches. No invite, not needed, not appreciated.
I think what seems weird is more like “Don’t touch your coworkers without their verbal consent”. Everyone should work to maintain situational awareness and notice if the way they interact with others makes them uncomfortable. But I have coworkers I am on a hugging basis with and coworkers I am not and we never actually *talked *about it. It just evolved–because we are sensitive to each other, and we pay attention to body language. I have other coworkers that I am as close or closer to that I do NOT hug, because it’s very clear to me that they don’t want to be touched. And there’s some gray area–I had a coworker squeeze my hand today in sympathy because I lost an Aunt, and I would probably in the balance have preferred he didn’t, but we’ve worked together for many years and I knew the gesture was heartfelt.
I think it’s super important that people respect boundaries, but I think that non-verbal communication of those boundaries is fine. It’s how people work.
Why isn’t “just don’t do that” an optimal course of action? It actually requires LESS actions on your part.
Sure. And you know for an absolute fact that those coworkers are comfortable with you hugging them?
I, for one, *don’t *disagree with such a rule. And I’m pretty sure that we’re only months away from exactly that rule in any company big enough to have an HR department. Actually, I think we’re going to see a rule that says “no touching whatsoever, ever, under any circumstances.”
It’s the only safe way to go.
That said, there are degrees of touching. Not every touch is sexual, or a means of asserting dominance or control. There are polite touches (for example, the silent time warning I described above, or the perfectly ordinary handshake upon being introduced to someone in a business environment*).
And then there are those touches that are out of line.
It is unfortunate that we couldn’t find a better way. But we haven’t, and I don’t think we will.
- I vaguely remember that there was a poster around here, a while back (like years back) who thought that a man offering a hand to a woman to shake in a business environment was committing something akin to sexual assault. But it was a while ago, and I could be wrong.
It always amazes me how many people in these threads insist that there should be no problem with them touching people who don’t want to be touched, and that they should not have to do anything whatsoever before placing hands on people that they either don’t know or only lightly know. I also don’t buy the story that mandatory touch has always been part of human communication; if you watch films of people back in the early 20th century interacting, you don’t see the unchecked touch that people here describe. Men will slap women’s asses when they can get away with it, but the only time you see men slapping each other’s ass is in a baseball game. Men don’t come up to their boss or foreman and give him a big hug. Men don’t put a hand on another man’s lower back to go by him in a crowd, but do to women. Men will often come up and rub a woman’s shoulder or shoulders, but doing the same thing to another guy will likely start a fight.
I agree, I have never in life seen a man lightly touch another man on the wrist to get him to stop talking in any sort of work context. (I’ve seen partners do it to each other, but that’s obviously a radically different context.) I think it’s rather disingenuous to change from the specific “lightly touched her wrist” to something more general. None of the people claiming it’s common have been willing to say that that particular gesture is something they see commonly.
I guarantee you that if we worked together, any touch of you upon me would be out of line. I hate that.
There’s a cool guy I work with everyday, and when he leaves, he comes over and fist-bumps me. I’d rather not do it. But I don’t want to hurt his feelings, and I actually don’t care if anyone touches me anywhere 
But it seems like a lot of people here thing that there are some touches that are NOT out of line, simply based on their own feelings. Just don’t do it. How hard is that?
Really? So if I came on board at your company, and we were introduced, and I offered a handshake, that would be out of line?
I get that you may not like that. You may even hate it. You have every right to refuse. But a handshake is a socially acceptable touch, even expected in some environments, and I would not be out of line to attempt to shake your hand.
I don’t get this. Any touch is out of line, and you hate that, or you actually don’t care? That said, you, of course, have every right to refuse to participate in the fist-bumping.
Well, that’s where we’re headed. As I said, soon enough, *all *touch will be prohibited at any firm large enough to have an HR department. So be it.
That said, handshakes aren’t out of line. The expectation that one participate in this age-old social ritual isn’t out of line.
I don’t hug them. We hug each other–it’s a mutual thing, with lots of opportunities for either person to pull back–because even someone who might want a hug one day might not on another.
I mean, no one can really know the heart of another–even verbal communication isn’t foolproof, if someone doesn’t feel free to say no. But generally speaking, sane and thoughtful people can 1) take cues from each other’s body language and 2) make a practice of respecting each other’s boundaries. I mean, I also sit and eat lunch with the same people each day. I don’t KNOW they want me to sit and eat lunch with them–we’ve never talked about it–but I’m not going to refrain from eating lunch with anyone just in case some people would rather I not sit at the same table as they do.
I fully, fully agree with you that people need to be sensitive to other’s verbal cues and to never assume that touch is welcome. I’d go further and say it’s super important to never expect anyone to explain or justify why they don’t want to be touched–it’s everyone’s right to preserve bodily autonomy–it’s the default. But I don’t think that means touch is bad, and I don’t think it’s impossible to communicate that through non-verbal means.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I don’t like when someone just comes up and starts touching me. The guy at work offers his hand. But there is a difference, to me, between me not being annoyed about something, and me caring about something to the point where I would make my views known.
I don’t consider “offering a handshake” and “grabbing a person’s hand” as the same thing.