Oops, forgot another angle.
I’m married. Am I a cheater for writing these letters?
Watching porn is only cheating if you’ve been compelled to move up and touch the screen.
In my expert opinion, that is.
I have to admit. My first reaction upon seeing the title of this thread was: “Oh, please. They can’t be serious.”
We had an ongoing discussion about this very thing in my college Soc class on Human Sexuality. Some people think kissing is cheating. Even innocent kisses on the cheek. What we finally decided was that whatever is agreed upon by two people is the safest bet. Me? No, I don’t think watching porn or having fantasies about other people is cheating. Not by a longshot. But in this very diverse SOC class, one thing I did notice was that the ones with the very narrow view of cheating were the youngest people in the class. The ones the prof referred to as the Doe Eyed Idealists who were certain that their one true love would be different from all horror stories told by the older students who had experienced the world.
As another poster said, porn can be addictive. My SO and I have quite the collection of tapes, books, magazines, we collect erotic art and we both have erotic site bookmarks on the computer. But when we first got a satellite dish, the porn channels were pay per view for a block of time. When he managed to run up our $70.00 monthly bill to somwhere around $160.00, I blocked the channels. It wasn’t a matter of his watching it, it was a monetary consideration and one which he agreed with. But I think he went through withdrawal 
I’ve said it before in another thread, but I’ll say it again. Having a fantasy life is healthy. Everybody has one. Its that game of Let’s Pretend that we never outgrow. Only the scenarios change.
Oh, hell no. Don’t even get me started on this one.
[very nice letters, by the way Chef]
I think what it comes down to is losing the idealism of being in a relationship. I, as well as many others beside myself, surely would love to believe that once one is dating someone/married to someone (and happily, in both situations), one should have no need for another woman or man, and that their current partner should leave said individual with no unresolved sexual desires. Many people I know do believe this. However, in my experience, more often than not, this is complete bullshit. I myself should be so lucky to find one woman who will ever perfectly satisfy me and make me never need another woman. If that ever happened, I’d be delighted, but the thing is, one can’t help but fantasizing about other women, or men, depending. The human mind/heart/sex drive is a bitch that way. Therefore, I believe one must consider what’s worse-one’s girlfriend or boyfriend looking at a picture of an orgy, or going and participating in one. Me, I’d choose the former. Pornography is one of the greatest things in this world; it provides fodder for the imagination, and can provide an outlet for feelings that might otherwise lead the way to infidelity. Now, there_are_times when pornography would bother me. If my girlfriend knew a guy in a picture, i.e. saw this person fairly regularly, I would feel uncomfortable, because in that case it’s a bit more personal, and could imply that my girlfriend would like to be with this person. Granted, it could not mean that at all, or that my girlfriend was using the picture as a way to keep her from actually going after this guy, but it would still make me feel uncomfortable. This leads me to my next point, which has been stated by someone in this thread at least once before-what it really comes down to is what the couple agrees on as being out of line, and whether or not of them crosses this line. If a woman has a problem with her husband looking at pornography, and he chooses to accept this, then he damn well better abide by it. Otherwise, he’d better really analyze what he’s doing in the relationship. And thus concludes yet another overly-long post by me.
-H.P.E.
My sunday school teacher once told me that, in God’s eyes, thinking about something was as bad as doing it. Apparently, thinking about doing something good isn’t good enough, you actually have to perform these deeds. What a gyp. Anyway, this conversation was one of the last shoves I needed away from organized religion.
By those rules, I would be:
an adulterer
bisexual (the jury may still be out on this one)
a murderer
a serial killer or mass-murderer
a thief
a sex criminal
a violent psychopath
a pedophile and child molester (hey, some of those high school girls are hot)
incestuous (had a weird dream about my lesbian aunt once)
Satan himself
an insurance salesman or movie producer
a rabid, insatiable, foul-mouthed goat-felching pervert
(Actually, my friends say I AM a rabid, insatiable, foul-mouthed pervert. I’ll get to the goat sooner or later).
Unfortunately, as good thoughts go unrewarded, I will never be:
a world-class hero
a martyr for an important cause
a famous musician and/or writer
a powerful activist
neat and organized
a pioneer in something or other
an inspiration
truly appreciated
truly loved
Oh well. Guess I’m stuck just being me.
Cheezuz, Chef Troy, where the heck do you get off (giggle) trying to make me actually THINK on a Friday afternoon?
Seriously, those are some fascinating questions you raise. Here’s my $1/50:
Just as there is a continuum of involvement in your description, there is a continuum from right -----> wrong. Your continuum consists of escalating levels of connection with another person(s) having sex, from video watching to full participation. I guess that the corresponding rates of escalation of these continuum depends upon the watcher’s morality. In other words, if he (used for lack of gender-neutral pronoun) finds watching a live sex show morally wrong, then everything you described that falls further along the sex continuum would be even MORE so. But someone, f’r instance in an “open” marriage wouldn’t find ANY of the things you describe as wrong.
Hmmm.
Okay, let’s try this again… Since the preceding paragraph didn’t resolve any questions, but just clarified terms, here’s my personal feelings. If your marriage vows included the words “forsaking all others” then that’s what you should do. Watching porn by yourself there is a lot of detachment. (Try watching it with the sound off - that’s demonstrates how detached it is.) Being in the same room as someone having sex is not as detached. The levels you describe also describe a ever-decreasing amount of inherent detachment. The more involved one becomes with what one is watching, the greater amount of “wrong-ness”.
I mean, correspond your continuum with this one:
watching a SI Swimsuit Special on TV
watching a (solo) Playmate video
watching a dancer on stage at a topless club
getting a table dance at a topless club
watching a dancer on stage at a nude club
getting a table dance at a nude club
getting a couch dance at a nude club
getting a private room dance at a nude club
getting a hooker
These also describe increasing levels of physical attachment, which increases the level of personal involvement. Personal involvement/physical attachment with someone who is not your spouse could be defined as cheating. The ultimate defining of the levels of cheating is determined, not by his morality, but by his wife’s.
(Looks at preceding paras.) Hey, get me, everybody! - I can be a real bag o’ wind when I put my mind to it!
I think it’s just another form of VERY creative writing. I had a website for about seven months that I updated every day with erotic white slavery bondage fiction and my husband dug it the most, cats.
jarbaby
The rules for a relationship are determined by the people in the relationship. Whatever me and my SO work out for us does not apply to you and your SO. It is as simple as that but the rules must apply to everyone in the relationship equally. In other words don’t tell me I can’t do something when it is ok for you to do it. (if you want to go to srip bars don’t complain when she goes to Chippendales) This includes your relationship with whatever GOD you choose to believe in. Catholic do believe that thoughts and deeds are sins. Sin only thought about are lesser and will get you fewer Hail Mary’s to say generally.
I am glad that me and my SO have worked out what is acceptable to both of us.
Now I do wish to express my opinion that this romance/sex division for women/men is total BS. Women have sexual cravings. Men do want the fairytale. You won’t convince me otherwise so don’t even try.
The Stovepipe???
What about sex chatrooms? I would have a HUGE problem if my SO started doing cybersex. For me that would be a form of infidelity that would distress me. I know it is just pixels on a screen but it would feel like more than that to me. I know it could be viewed as just another form of creative writing… I wouldn’t be bothered if he wrote erotica though…
The SO in question is the only person who can define what is and is not cheating.
Amen frannie, this is absolutely the law. Although I do believe that there are people out there, so insecure in the stability of their relationships or with such low self esteem that they’ll go bonkers over finding a Playboy hidden in the dresser.
i know my husband isn’t going to cheat on me. He knows I would never cheat on him. So when I tell him i’m going to leave him and run away with mark brunell, he just laughs.
jarbaby
Here’s another sticky wicket. (hee hee)
What about cybersex makes it less acceptable than erotica? One might define the difference in terms of the size of the audience, which in the case of cybersex is usually one person. But by that logic erotica that the writer doesn’t show anyone would be WORSE than cybersex.
okay, let’s define it in terms of the interactive nature of it. Cybersex, unlike most erotica, is composed on the fly with the participants taking turns (at least until one of them has to…um…stop typing for a few minutes). But there is nothing to PREVENT erotica from being written this way. How would you feel if he wrote erotica with a writing partner? If that bothers you, would it make a difference if it were someone you knew he wasn’t attracted to?
And of course there’s usually masturbation involved with cybersex. but it stands to reason that a lot of more literary erotica winds up as fantasy fodder too. does it make a significant difference if the masturbation is done right then or later when the erotica is read by someone else? (of course, cybersex writing is done with the express intent to titillate a specific person, and erotica is written for presumably nobler purposes with the understanding that someone, somewhere, MAY read it while jostlin’ the elder, so maybe this argument doesn’t wash.)
I think the most compelling difference is the potential for emotional attachment with cybersex, which is absent from erotica. Does that make anonymous cybersex with NO emotional attachment closer to the wrongness level of erotica?
I agree, btw, with whoever said that right and wrong must be defined in terms of the spouse’s definition… otherwise saying “I don’t think it’s wrong” would be a universal get-out-of-jail-free card as long as the cheater is prepared to let the spouse do the same thing.
I’m afraid I’d “go bonkers.” That’s neither “bad” nor “good”; it just is. My point remains: Cheating really can only be defined by those involved.
hmmm…ok. You’re right. I’m sorry if that sounded snippy. To each his/her own.
No, and let me say it again, NO, porn is not cheating, provided it isn’t taking the place of a relationship with your chosen SO. I love and desire Mr. Winkie (okay, I have to think of something else to call him) and he loves and desires me, but to think that we will always and forever be each other’s complete sexual fantasy is not realistic. As we like to say in my house, “I don’t care where you get your appetite, as long as you come home to eat!”
I basically agree with this point, except for one thing. In my experience and observation, most couples never clearly define what is cheating and what is not. People seem to have their own ideas of what’s ok and what’s not, and assume whoever they are with agrees with it. People too often appear to think that there is a universally accepted definition of cheating, which is to say their own definition. Often, the issue doesn’t come up until one party steps over the other party’s boundaries, with negative results.
Then there’s the whole issue of people who hold one standard for themselves and quite another for their partner. I’m going to stay away from that one.
Pardon me if I’m a bit off here today. It’s been a very off day 
The STOVEpipe?
Actually, Doc, this quote is probably what your Sunday School teacher was basing that on:
**
Not agreeing or disagreeing, just providing the reference. My personal feelings on the subject are harder to define. I don’t like porn. I don’t get anything out of it. I don’t even enjoy the “soft porn” stuff you get in an R-rated movie and I skip past erotic sections of novels that I’m reading. That doesn’t mean that I think my hubby is cheating if he looks at the stuff. I’ve even helped him find web-sites before. I do occasionally feel–oh–hurt, jealous, whatever, that he feels the need to look at other women in a sexual way. (I rarely–but occasionally–look at other men that way. I’d be a hypocrite if I said I didn’t.) But those are just little niggling doubts about my own sexuality, usually. Do I satisfy him? Am I enough for him?–That kind of thing. But I know he will not actually get involved with another real, live human woman in any sexual way–including cyber-sex. (To me the distinction when it comes to cheating is the participation of and interaction with another living person in a sexual way, whether in person or via the net.)
God, does any of this make sense?