I mostly “put myself through school” by applying my tail off for scholarships and grants due to academic successes of various types. My parents had saved a moderate bit of cash for it anyway (they own a general store in a small town, so it’s not like we were rich, but it’s amazing how fast $25/week added up in passbook savings at 1980s interest rates) so I never paid a cent out of pocket for books or tuition or room/board. For spending money, I rationed the money I’d saved working after school in high school and summers from college–in those summers, I spent the first one working at my parents’ store, and had a different random internship for the remaining four (an unfortunate medical issue and major change added a year to my degree) in my field of choice in a variety of settings. Actually, that was the best possible work experience–doing my chosen career path at a small business, a medium-large business, and a medium-sized university in successive years really made me realize where I wanted to focus my career.
I’m not of the opinion that people need to work during or for college to really have it hit home, but some prior work experience is beneficial in terms of getting one used to the idea that you have to schedule and plan and get yourself places.
As for the motivating factor of earning it yourself, that cuts both ways–one of my friends broke down at one point late in a semester in which he was failing a few classes due to too many video games, repeating the refrain of “Oh God, I just realized I am wasting my mom’s money.”; whereas another friend used his hard-earned money to buy video games on the apparent rationale that a menial job was enough to keep him fed, housed, and buy the occasional Playstation game, so fuck college. Ultimately it’s what you make of it.
Well, truth to tell, once I fulfilled all the requirements for graduation and had a few med school acceptances in hand, and returned the check for the (now unnecessary) final semester tuition to my dad, I did do a lot of drinking and dicking around…
Have you ever managed a restaurant, or attended such classes? I can think of several physicists who would have found it quite difficult.
The problem with this thread is that it implies that contempt for certain types of work. I don’t think that was the OPs intent, but it seems to strike a nerve in some responders. But your comment sounds like it was said with a contraction of the nostrils. I would like to say to you that the great advantage of working such jobs is to learn respect for those who perform honest work, despite it’s nature.
It’s by no means contemptuous to recognize the basic fact that some degree programs - and jobs - are harder than others, and some are much harder than others. That’s the way life works, and it’s one reason why Engineers, Physicians, and Lawyers get paid 3 to 10 times what the average person makes.
It is precisely because I worked so many menial jobs that I never look down on people who do. I’ve worked the fry station (and to this day can proudly show off the grease burn scars on my hands and wrists to prove it), the drive-through, mowed lawns and trimmed hedges, just about killed myself delivering pizzas for years, and even on one occasion been a beer wench in costume at the Renn Fest.
I do look down on people who don’t try and who don’t put forth the effort. I have respect for a person who tried their best and ended up as an assistant manager at Burger King. I have no respect for, say, one of my friends who went to school to get a Journalism degree for the stated reason that “it’s the easiest degree on campus. Four years and out, and then my dad will find something for me to do at his business.” And they lied on their financial aid forms every year too, I discovered ex post facto, which explains why they had thousands of dollars each semester to spend on booze and vacations.
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I realize that I thought I had responded to the OP in a roundabout way, but i’ll be more direct: because I believe that the stress and effort of balancing a job and academics builds, nay, forges character, yes it is an economically rational thing to do. Because that drive, that edge in those who do it, will lead to job opportunities and positions which will pay off big economically in the end. That’s both my experience and my belief.
I just wanted to add that I have a friend who spent her first two years of law school working 12-hour shifts on weekends as a nurse in the ER. She graduated 3/105 in her class and was one of the first employed from her class, when it took some others a couple of years to find a place, largely because of work experience, and now she’s general counsel for a large hospital corporation.
Seriously? I mean, really? My husband is a computer engineer for the federal gov’t, in the department that processes Medicare and Medicaid payments to doctors and medical facilities. It is his job to look over proposals from sub-contractors and make sure there’s not too much dead weight in there, as well as keeping the system up and running, as it must be, 24/7, in order not to get too backlogged.
He doesn’t earn a fortune, but his salary is right around 90K a year, plus benefits. He certainly wouldn’t consider his job ‘menial’. Are you saying you would?
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As to the OP, as a lot of others have said, you can’t assume that other students working menial jobs (and by ‘menial’, I mean flipping burgers, waitressing, being a janitor, stuff like that) have a choice about working. Maybe they can’t get through school any other way. Maybe they have parents (like us) who will pay the cost of the education, but not the cost of partying.
I didn’t go to college, but I do see where working while attending school would teach you a lot, not only about time management, but about people management. Very important in the business world, no matter what your major is.
Others have mentioned that some majors are very easy and others are difficult. Schools vary widely as well. A friend who went to SMU, a very good but by no means spectacular college, had nothing going on one summer so he got a job in El Paso and took a look at the UTEP course catalog. He was a pretty good student but had to work hard to keep the grades up. There were a few classes that interested him, but he didn’t have the prereqs. He contacted the instructors, who were ecstatic that someone was interested in their classes and granted permission for him to sign up without the prereqs. He said it was easier than highschool; he didn’t have to do crap and he walked away with an A in each class.
Precisely. I was not trying to be contemptuous of restaurant managers, but let’s face it, some degree programs are more difficult than others. They are not equally hard, and I simply don’t believe a major in restaurant management – and I knew several – has a program anywhere near as difficult as an engineering or a pre-med student – and I knew several. (Congrats to your son, TriPolar. I’m not saying his course is a breeze, mind you.)
Again, I thoroughly recommend a job in the campus library. My job in my very large library was in microforms and periodicals, and when I was not tending to the very light work load, I could disappear into the stacks and pore through the journals on just about every field under the sun. There were even two (2!) trade journals on the carpark industry. It was an education in itself. And not only was there lots of on-the-job study time, but i had the option of bumping up to full-time during school breaks if I wanted. It was perfect.
Yes. But I don’t look down on people doing menial jobs. I’ve been lucky that I was able to be self-employed most of my life. Paying for the college education for two sons was putting a dent in my lifestyle, so I’m working a similar type of menial job now. It’s convenient and doesn’t require me to make the investment in starting up a business again. But I work for someone else, and have to place their priorities ahead of my own. When I was young, and had to work at what you would consider menial jobs to survive, I learned that a strong work ethic, and doing any job well, was much more important than the type of work I was doing. Your husband is very lucky to have such a good position, and I am quite familiar with that field, so I can imagine how hard he works, and how difficult it was to attain. The same goes for those who I know who work on loading docks, as restaurant cooks, hospital orderlies, mechanics, and so many other fields. They aren’t lazy, or underachievers. They are doing the best they can with their abilities.
I was overly sensitive to your original comment. I’m sure you were not being contempuous and looking for a example to use in a comparison. My son had to work very hard to earn his degree. I know someone with an engineering degree from a well known school, who never had to work very hard to get it. He is very lucky to have such natural ability. Many people go to school to challenge themselves and attain the greatest level of skill and knowledge they can. Others take the easiest path through. So it’s not as simple as the field you go into. But you are absolutely right, college programs can have greatly different degrees of difficulty.
I graduated with a BA magna cum laude, then got a MA with a 4.0 grad school GPA. I feel that most of that time was utterly wasted because I wasn’t developing a job history. I had been told by people I respected that I was so smart that I could do whatever I wanted, but they hadn’t bothered to tell me that no one would be interested in me unless I had a respectable resume. My mother paid (and continues to repay loans) for me; my parents were saving for my college education ever since I was small. My father passed away while I was in High school, and while I often detested his parenting, he was somewhat forceful and had me do things to improve my lot in life. After he died, my mother made me quit the job my father made me get in order to help around the house, and I was never pressured to work again.
Part of it was my mental abnormalities that had been diagnosed as merely depression, but only a year ago was the root case of them identified as Asperger’s. I had to rely on other people to tell me how I was supposed to prepare for my future, and they let me down by emphasizing my intellect while failing to realize I still needed to have something to show for myself besides a college degree. Now I can’t go back to grad school to get a PhD (without which getting a job in my field is nearly impossible) without either a job or a TA position - and the latter I was incapable of doing the first time around while getting the MA: I ended up in the hospital psych ward after being completely overwhelmed with my inability to teach.
While I had people mention how certain things I did might “look good on my resume”, I took all such things as immaterial for me: I was such a stellar student that I didn’t need to do such things. I did some grading while an undergrad, but wish now that I had done it most of my career in order to show at least something. I wish I was more forcefully pushed into doing Research Experiences of Undergrads or at least some sort of internship, but instead I spent time off school being shuttled from one state to the next due to my mother making some questionable decisions about where to live. I wish I had spent more time developing my career, but no one ever told me just how important it was, nor did they give me a specific path to follow. That latter part was the real problem as an Aspie - vague ideas about what to do just aren’t enough; I need step-by-step instructions, and I never got them.
Thus, whatever you do in college, make sure you spend your breaks and free time doing something productive. As to whether menial jobs during college are economically rational, they certainly are for some people because they’re better than the alternative. While I would focus more on developing skills related to your future profession rather than waiting tables or working construction, sometimes they just aren’t available and it definitely makes sense to take whatever you can get.
This, but for the additional very important reason of: enjoying a subject academically is almost wholly unrelated to the experience of working in that field. You may love science, and therefore choose some science major - but your classes will teach you next to nothing at all about whether you are best suited for a post graduation career as an academic researcher, a laboratory worker, a science writer or entertainer, or whether you’d be best off just enjoying science as a hobby and working in some other field. It’s really very important to get actual experience getting a feel for the actual workplace and day to day activities. This will give you such a huge head start in pointing you towards an eventual career that will actually be fulfilling and not burn you out or make you jaded, that it’s worth any extra money you might get working for tips.
I didn’t have a choice and started working part time from 10 (mowing lawns). Frankly, if you’re working hard in University, I don’t think a part time job makes economic sense if you can afford not to. Getting a double major, becoming fluent in a 2nd or 3rd language, etc is probably better economically than being a Starbuck Barista.
Of course, I have also run into “kids” who have never worked or never worked a distasteful job in their life. There’s a pretty steep learning curve in the corporate environment and some can’t hack it. And yes when I weigh in on hiring decisions for new grads I definately weight some part time work and deduct points for a 4.0. YMMV
The economic calculus is different for each person.
I think its pretty stupid to go into debt for any college degree, but I’m not a fan of debt and I think too many people take out far too much student loan debt for careers that are not high paying enough to justify the debt.
I am a big fan of Mom and Dad paying for college, but also of Junior working for his or her own spending money. If Mom and Dad don’t or won’t pay for college, Junior should go to college in a way that creates the least debt possible - at least for undergrad. That may mean taking six or eight years to graduate because that’s what you need to do.
Some menial jobs are great for college. I used to have someone who worked for me who did the night security job at an office building. Plenty of study time between rounds. A friend worked the night shift at Perkins. Before and after bar rush left lots of time.
I’ve hired my share of people, and I would have to agree that I’d give a nod to similar candidates where one had held a job during their undergrad degree. Even if it was a menial job, it still means they showed up to work on time, followed processes. Most jobs have their share of the menial. Someone who hasn’t had to juggle priorities - job and school - doesn’t have a record of juggling priorities - work and home life (or work and social life).
(I got my second Bachelors, graduating with a 3.97 - while working full time in a professional job with young kids at home - I went to school half time.)
Sounds to me like TriPolar is one of those people who think, mistakenly, that the self-employed and/or business owners don’t have to answer to anybody, plus he has no idea what the actual meaning of “menial” is. Putting in the same basket the CFO of the Coca-Cola Company and those jobs I had cleaning offices (and their bathrooms…) and meaning it strikes me as the kind of thing one may be allowed only before having his first cup of coffee of the day.
I’ve been self-employed/business owner most of my life. You’re getting the wrong impression from what I’m saying, or maybe you look down on menial work as well. I think honest work, done well, is respectable no matter what it is. Did you read the rest of my posts? If the CFO at Coca-Cola is doing something he doesn’t want to because he needs the job, I don’t see the distinction. And since I don’t drink coffee, it probably explains why I’m like this all the time. I used to apologize for my attitude, but now that you’ve fought my ignorance, I realize it is allowable.
What’s all the hostility about anyway? ‘Menial’ means ‘servile’, worthy of a servant. Granted I’m using some license there, in terms of the classical usage, but that is the role of anyone who works at another’s behest, from my perspective. Not because it’s a lesser occupation, but because I bristle at the notion of being told what to do. If not for that, I might be the CIO of Pepsi-Cola right now. I chose personal satisfaction over monetary gain for myself. I don’t think I deserve to be criticized for that, or for believing that the word ‘menial’ shouldn’t be used in a derogatory manner either.
Probably I was thinking of what dictionary.com has to say about the word ‘menial’, which is:
lowly and sometimes degrading: menial work.
2.
servile; submissive: menial attitudes.
3.
pertaining to or suitable for domestic servants; humble: menial furnishings.
However, it was Nava who contributed the second comment about your opinion, I said absolutely nothing. I would agree that there should be a good word for the attitude you’re trying to convey, and maybe there is a good word. If so, I don’t know what it is. I do know that the word ‘menial’ has connotations and denotations that do not fit the professions of a number of people I know, including the world-renowned cardiologist (who is a cardiologist because he feels that is his calling and gift in life) who works for the Western Maryland Health System.
