Islam and Science

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Oh, great- if I disagree with you, and provide arguments to support my position, I’m just being closed-minded.

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Your point being…?

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How many times do I have to tell you that this is simply not true?

Why should we even bother talking to you if you just ignore everything we say?

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Again, we have a situation in which it would be virtually impossible to find a situation which could not be twisted to fit the Koran. What if the Koran said four layers? Aha! A miraculous foreshadowing of modern science, because the fetus is surrounded by 1) the abdominal wall, 2) the uterus, 3)the placenta and embryonic membranes, and 4)the amniotic fluid! And if the verse said two, then obviously it’s referring to 1) the abdominal wall and 2) the uterus, embryonic membranes, placenta, and amniotic fluid.

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In other words, a full 1400 years ago the Koran clearly stated that some people are male, and some people are female. What’s next? Is the Koran going to foreshadow modern science by saying that water is wet?

-Ben

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Do you have any idea what you’re saying? You say that my sources are obviously hostile towards Islam, but then you complain that you don’t know who my sources are. Fine, if you want a source, I’ll get you a source, but at least admit that you have no place criticising my sources before you even find out who they are.

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Edward Said is a Palestinian, not a “Western” writer.

What I actually said:

"One historian who disputed the idea that the Quran wasn’t written down during the life of Mohammed was run out of his country by death threats; I read an article in The Atlantic on the topic recently. "
Averroes, do you listen to anything we say?

-Ben

Wouldn’t you know it, the Atlantic happens to have the article on the Koran online:

I suppose this makes it an “anti-Islamic website” like Averroes describes, after all…

-Ben

I’m curious; what do you folks make of this?

“And he followed a road; Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu’l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.” (Qur’an 18:85-86)

-Ben

To further clean up the issue of algebra, I would like to note that it is “the rock” that advanced mathematics are built on.

In the Name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.

I just read the article you mentioned about the incompleteness of the Quran. Actually I myself have the exact same article printed out, as it was given to me by a freind who found it interesting. But I think a few points have to be made, because the conclusions made by the article are very whimsical and inaccurate, for the following reasons:

Point #1 - The persons involved in deciphering the transcripts found and studying them were ALL western, non - Muslim scholars. Some of them were German and also one was Jewish. Go figure! The people with the most hostile intentions against Islam are studying the Quran and Islamic studies. This is exactly what we meant by Western Orientalists covering the truth of Islam from the masses by means of their so-called “intellectualism”, through which they try to decieve people.

Point #2 - The scholars themselves did not even consult any Islamic scholars on the issue, to see their opinions or interpretations. By Islamic scholars I do not mean “Muslim” scholars. There is a difference. An Islamic scholar is a Muslim scholar who is learned in the feilds of the Islamic studies. But a Muslim scholar can be learned in any field, but will still be called a Muslim scholar. They did not even consult any Islamic scholars on this issue, but rather based all their final conclusions and interpretations on their limited scholarly knowedge. Objectivity means viewing all possible interpretations to an issue then coming to the most logical conclusions. Obviously these Orientalist scholars have ignored the rule of objectivity.

Point #3 - There have even been some Islamic scholars in the past who have debated the authenticity of the Quran, such as Husain Ibn Muhammad Taqi al-Nuri al-Tabarsi (c 1254/1838 - 1320/1902). And yet all of their claims have been refuted several times over by the greatest Islamic scholars of both the past and the present. Even within the some Sunni Hadeeth books there are traditions of that claim that certain verses of the Quran were either added or deleted, and yet these cannot be used as proof against the authenticity of the Quran because of 2 obvious reasons. a) the traditions themselves are ‘ahad’ traditions, meaning they have only been narrated by one chain of authorities, and the chain of authorities (those people who relate the traditions) have all been criticized as being weak. This is not because of the traidition itself that they are claimed as weak, but because the scholars themselves have reviewed and studied the history and life of these narrators and come to the conclusion that they were either liars, untrustworthy, ect… b) a large number of traditions were fabricated, and so to test those traditions the scholars must test them with the Book of God (the Quran). If the traditions agree with the Quran and its spirit then the hadeeth or tradition is accepted as authentic, if not then it is discarded and labelled as weak or unauthentic. All traditions that are found in some Islamic hadeeth books are in total conflict with what the Quran teaches, and therefore the Quran is the standard and not the hadeeths. The Quran is the Word of God, the traditions are the Word of the Prophet, and although both are types of revelation, the former is of more value and wight than the latter.

Point #4 - When Muslims say that the Quran will never be altered or changed, that does not mean that every version of the Quran that has appeared up until now and will appear in the future is 100 % unaltered and authentic. Sometimes copies are made that have a few deletions or alterations. But this does not effect the authenticity of the Quran. Becaus what we mean is that the original Quran in the hands of MOST Muslims is the oiginal, and those few (very few) exceptions do not effect this claim. I myself have a version of the Quran wherein some of the verses are lengthier than the ones in the original one used by all Muslims. Of course I do not read from this one because it is NOT the Quran. Mistakes took place in its publication most probably. But the claim still stands, because God has preserved the popular and original copy which is in the hands of the great majority of Muslims from any alterations or deletions. This cannot be compared to the Christian position of their Holy Book on the issue, for Christians (the majority) hold all their many versions of the Bible to be of equal authority, and they have several versions of it. Muslims have one version of the Quran that is read the same way all over the world, with a very few copies that have been altered or changed, which they do not read from nor hold as authentic.

And so as in the article under discussion, those Orientalists were very ignorantly assuming that what Muslims mean by “God preserving the Quran” was that we believe that God will prevent any person in the world to ever change any letter in the Quran, from now till the Day of Judgement, or that every single copy will be unaltered and unchanged. That is not at all what Muslims mean by the infalliblity of the Quran. As I have explained above, it may be that a few copies are altered here and there, but 1) these are a very few and are not the ones used by the majority of Muslims, and 2) they are not held as authentic, and are usually just errors in copying or writing, unlike the Bible for example which has been tampered with for individual and personal purposes (both secualr and religious).

Point #5 - Those manuscripts found, the ones mentioned in the article, are not the oldest of manuscripts found, for scholars have found other similar manuscripts dating at the same dates, all of which are in complete harmony with each other. This shows that the ones found in Yemen are an exception, a deviation from the oirginal ones.

Point #6 - The Orientalists in the article seemed to be stressing the fact that the manuscripts found were unidentical from the Quran we have today because of the “change of order of the verses”. This is seen by the following statement “Their variant readings and verse orders are all very significant…” But what these Orientalist are ignorant of the fact that the chronological order of the Quran as we have it today is not the same as it was revealed to the Prophet Mohammad. The order in which we have it today was that compiled by the third Caliph Uthman, because he wanted to make an official copy of the Quran that everyone had and could read. He did this presumably because of the various versions of the Quran that had been circulating since the death of the Prophet. What I mean by various versions is only their chronological order and nothing more, ie. no deletions or additions to the original text. And so the third Caliph, about 20 years after the death of the Prophet, collected all the manuscripts of the Quran and put them into one set order that all Muslims would use. And so the Quran as we have it today, although the same Quran and the same verses, is not in the same order as it had been revealed to Prophet Mohammad. And yet this does not take away the infallibility and authenticity from the text.

And although it may be agreed that there were slightly few differences in the original texts, they were not to such an extent as to bring about new “meanings” in the verses, which is very different from the case of the Bible, as I have shown in some of the old forums I participated in.

As a last remark I would just like to say that the greatest flaw in the article you base your claims on is the fact that the scholars involved are a) western orientalists with very obvious biases, and b) that they are not learned whatsoever in the history of the Quran or Islam or how it was compiled. Even though they may be intellectuals or scholars in the feild of Islamic studies, it is very obvious to any reader that they do in fact hold a suspiscious hostitlity towards Islam, albeit veiled and indirect ofcourse. This is shown by their sarcastic comments on Salman Rushdie, and their constant foolish comparisons between Islam and Christianity, and also their outright remarks that indicate that all Muslims are all fanatics who have a temper and are not able to rationalize or reason for themselves, a people who are compelled to follow their emotions more so than their minds. This is very obvious by their indications that Muslims should follow the path of the Renaissance and Reformation of Europe – indirectly meaning we should seperate religion from state, or in fact rid ourselves of religion altogether. All this while the Reformation itself had its roots in the role Islam and Muslim philosophers and scientists played in translating Greek texts into Arabic, which in turn were translated into Latin, and the many medical works and mathematical advancements made by important figures such as Aviceena and Averroes.

Anyone can see that the Orientalists in the article indeed did have a sort of hostility towards Islam and the Quran, and that their biases overshadowed their scientific research and objectivity. In fact all this article did was to further prove to me how all of what I said in my previous post was very true, and that my claim that your sources were anti-Islamic was indeed fact and not just speculation. Hostility doesnt necessarily mean that one has to outwardly manifest this hatred. It is more effective when it is done through “diplomatic” or “scholarly” methods, therefore in keeping with what today is popularly praised as “intellectualism”.

Anyways the truth of the Quran is very evident like I said, and its authenticity will remain manifest, although the unbelievers try to hide it.

And say: “Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.” (Quran 17:81)

Your sources therefore are weak and blatantly erroneous, and the intentions were wicked and unscholarly because of the many points I provided above, and many others I have chosen to overlook. So much for your claims about the authenticity of the Quran. It was worth a try though I guess. :slight_smile:

Just a slight comment and correction to my above post. A few of the writers and scholars mentioned in the article were indeed “Muslims”, but yet still they were not “Islamic” scholars. Those Muslims mentioned in the article (i later found that there was a page 2-3) were in fact educated in secular schools, and so normally their mentality and notions were effected by those of their preachers. In any case their claims and support of western scholarship on the subject of authenticity of the Quran has been criticized and scrutinized by our most eminent scholars. Just a bit of clearing up:)

No better evidence of the passion of Islam for the spread of erudition, from its very inception, can be given than the words of the Prophet himself who said, after the battle of Badr and the Muslims’ victory, to the huge crowds whom they had taken prisoner, that any of them who wished to buy their freedom but had no cash for a ransom could employ their literacy as their resources; and any polytheist who trained ten Muslims to read and write should win freedom. His pronouncement was put into practice; and it was thus that a large number of his original adherents were started on the road of education.

His nephew and successor, the Imam Ali, on whom be blessing, declared that the spreading of science and knowledge and culture and intellectual ability was one of the merits to be coveted and achieved by every Muslim government. In the record of his words it is reported that he said: “O people! I have rights over you and you have rights over me. Your right over me is to insist that I shall always give you guidance and counsel. and seek your welfare, and improve the public funds and all your livelihoods, and help raise you from ignorance and illiteracy to heights of knowledge, learning, culture, social manners and good conduct.”

215 years after the Hejra the Abbasid Caliph Ma’amoun founded a “House of Wisdom” in Baghdad to be a centre of science, and furnished it with an astronomical observatory and a public library for which he set aside 200,000 dinars (the equivalent of some 7 million dollars). He gathered together a large number of learned men who were acquainted with foreign languages and different disciplines, like Honain and Bakht-eeshoo’ and Ibn Tariq and lbn Muqafa’ and Hajaj bin Matar and Sirgis Ra’asi, and others too numerous to mention, and set aside a large sum for them, dispatching many of them to all the different countries of the world to collect books on science, medicine, philosophy, mathematics, and fine literature, in Hindi, Pahlevi, Chaldean, Syriac, Greek, Latin and Farsi. It is said that the vast collections they sent to Baghdad exceeded 100 camel loads!

Europe had not one university or cultural centre to show for itself in those centuries when Islamic lands had large numbers staffed by experts and specialists in all branches of knowledge. These Islamic centres were beginning to radiate waves of brilliant new thinking to the world at the very moment when the Crusades were launched. In fact it might be said that it was the new learning fostered by Islam which itself furnished the Europeans with some of their new thinking that made possible whatever prowess they achieved in those disastrous wars and fired the passion of jealousy and cupidity which made the West wish to seize for itself the treasures which they saw Islam bringing to the nations under its sway.

Dr. Gustave Le Bon writes on page 329 of volume III of his “History of Islamic and Arab Civilisation”. “In those days when books and libraries meant nothing to Europeans, many Islamic lands had books and libraries in plenty. Indeed, in Baghdad’s ‘House of Wisdom’ there were four million volumes ; and in Cairo’s Sultanic Library one million; and in the library of Syrian Tripoli three million volumes; while in Spain alone under Muslim rule there was an annual publication of between 70 and 80 thousand volumes.”

G. l’Estrange in his “Legacy of Islam” page 230 writes: “The Mustansariyya University was furnished with equipment and built in a huge campus with college edifices of such splendour that its peer exists neither in the Muslim world nor elsewhere. Its four law-colleges, each with 75 students and a professor who taught the pupils gratis, paid its professor a monthly salary, while each of the 300 students was given a gold dinar a month. A college kitchen provided the daily meals. Ibn-el-Farat says that the library contained priceless and unique volumes, on many branches of science, for any student to borrow. Pens and paper were provided for the notes anyone might wish to take. The university had hammams (baths) and infirmaries. Its doctors conducted a daily inspection of the colleges, and wrote prescriptions for any who were ill. The college stores were able to dispense drugs prescribed, immediately. All this at the beginning of the 13th century AD!”

Dr. Max Meyerhof writes: “In Istambul the mosques possess between them more than 80 libraries, with tens of thousands of books and ancient manuscripts. In Cairo, Damascus, Mosul, Baghdad, and in cities of Iran and of India there are other great libraries full of treasures. A proper catalogue of the precious volumes in all these has not yet been published complete in print. Moreover the Escorial library in the Iberian Peninsula contains a huge section filled with books and manuscripts produced by the Islamic scholars of the West, which also awaits completion of its cataloguing.”

Dr. Gustave Le Bon writes on pages 557-78 of his “Islamic and Arab Civilisation”. “The Muslims pursued the sciences with profound application. In any town they took, their first act was to build a mosque and thereafter a college. This led to the production of majestic institutions of learning in a vast number of cities. Benjamin Toole (ob. 1173 AD) said that in Alexandria he found more than 20 colleges at work. Baghdad, Cairo, Cordova, and other places all had great universities with laboratories, observatories, huge libraries and all the other requirements for tackling intellectual problems. In Andalusia alone there were 70 public libraries. The library of Al-Hakem II in Cordova contained 600,000 volumes and it took 44 volumes to catalogue the library’ s contents. When Charles the Just, four centuries later, founded the Bibliotheque Nationale of Paris he was only able to assemble a total of 900 volumes, and that after great labours, while one-third of that 900 were books on religion.”

The same author on page 562 adds: "The Muslims launched science on the road of exactitude, experiment and forward-looking discovery by hypothesis, with a particular enthusiasm, while producing books and treatises and high schools that spread their intellectual prowess to all corners of the world. They thereby opened for Europe the road to its renaissance. So it is with justification that the title of “Europe’s Professor’ is given to the newly-arisen Islamic power, since it was through them that the treasures of ancient Greek and Roman science were rediscovered and enhanced and given back to Europe as she began to emerge from the Dark Ages.”

Josef Marc Kapp writes, concerning the first centuries of Islam’s progress in culture, in his book '“Muslim Splendour in Spain” (p.170). “Even the lowest classes in society were athirst to learn to read; and humble workers limited their expenditure on food and clothing and spent their last sou on buying books. One worker collected such a library that men of learning flocked to him. Freed slaves and the children of slaves entered the ranks of the learned; and men like V afyat-ul- A’iyan lbn Khalkan laid the foundations for great progress”.

Nehru wrote concerning the benefits conferred on social progress and the cultural revolution of the Muslims in Andalusia in his book “A Glimpse at World History” (p.413): “Cordova had over a million inhabitants, a magnificent public park of about 20 kilometres and suburbs stretching40 kilometres, with 6,000 palaces, mansions and great houses, 200,000 smaller houses of beauty, 70,000 stores and small shops, 300 mosques, 700 hammams with hot and cold baths for public use. There were innumerable libraries of which the most comprehensive and important was the Royal Library, which contained 400,000 volumes. Cordova University was famous throughout Europe and in western Asia. At the same time education was provided for the poor. Indeed one of their contemporary historians writes that nearly everyone in Spain in those days could read and write, while in the rest of Christian Europe, apart from the monks and clearly persons who were educated through religious houses, no one, including the highest members of the nobility, thought it worth his while even to attempt to master basic arts of reading.”

And yet still some Orientalists have the provacative nerve to say that we should learn from the Renaissance or Reformation!

Averroes: * First of all about the conflict of the mutakallimun with some scientific discoveries, I never truly ruled out the possibility, but rather said that the conflict was more on philosophical and theological grounds than purely scientific grounds. *

Well, what you said was * These Muslim philosophers and scientists never encountered any conflict or disputes with the orthodox religious scholars of their times, and this precisely because there is absolutely no conflict between the Islamic teachings and science. * But since we now seem to be in agreement that there was conflict between medieval scientists and theologians about apparent contradictions between science and theology, I withdraw my correction of what I thought you meant.

  • The second crucial point that I should ‘clear up’ is that the bedouins of pre-Islamic Arabia were NOT educated, had no particularly scientific heritage, no organized society or economy, and no organised set of ‘written literature’. *

If you want to equate my characterization of “a tribal society of pastoral nomads” with “lacking in education, science, organized society and economy”, I have no quarrel with that: it seems somewhat slanted in favor of urban civilization, but so be it. Likewise, if you want to disqualify a corpus of written poetry (which indeed was inaccessible to the illiterate majority, as written works were in other ancient “literate” societies too) from being “an organised set of written literature” because it isn’t a canonical scripture, fine.

  • The people with the most hostile intentions against Islam are studying the Quran and Islamic studies. This is exactly what we meant by Western Orientalists covering the truth of Islam from the masses by means of their so-called “intellectualism”, through which they try to decieve people. *

Sigh. Well, I didn’t really think we’d make it through this thread without a discussion of “Orientalism”, so here goes:

The term “Orientalist” was originally (since about the eighteenth century, I think) applied by Europeans and other Westerners to a Western scholar who studied any Asian language, literature, or civilization, from the Near East to Japan. It is still used as an honorable designation among many scholars (including the American Oriental Society who recognize the depth and extent of Asia’s contributions to world civilization and think that studying them is a worthwhile pursuit.

Recently (within the past few decades), many Western-trained Asians (most notably the Palestinian/Egyptian Edward Said) have begun to stress some very important and all-too-often-overlooked points about Asia and the West. They have pointed out that many Westerners were and are extremely prejudiced against the “Orient”, which they viewed primarily as a projection of their exotic notions about “oriental despotism”, “oriental luxury”, “oriental savagery”, harems, pearls, poisons, apes, ivory, and peacocks, etc. etc. Many Orientalist scholars shared these prejudices, which influenced their supposedly “objective” research on “Oriental” subjects. Said’s seminal 1978 book Orientalism brought these issues into the public eye; consequently, as one essay remarks, nowadays “When used by Muslims, the word “Orientalist” generally refers to any Western scholar who studies Islam—regardless of his or her motives—and thus, inevitably, distorts it.”

The modern Western “Orientalist” scholar is therefore caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, not to study Asian languages and literatures would be to ignore the importance of a huge and vital segment of human history, as well as to deny one’s own passion for an exciting field of research. On the other hand, studying them lays one open to the charge that any criticisms of or disagreements with indigenous scholarship traditions are motivated by Eurocentrist imperialist bigotry. It has become a commonplace to see accusations of “Orientalism” leveled at European scholars by others (European or not) who disagree with their conclusions. It is also undeniable that various forms of anti-Asian prejudice do still exist in the West, and nobody can completely avoid them.

So what does all this have to do with Averroes’s remark? Just this: while I recognize that prejudice is a reality and that perfect objectivity is a myth, I consider this sort of accusation of Orientalist “hostility” and “deception” to be more of a knee-jerk response than a valid scholarly criticism. I have no information about the credentials or bona fides of the author of the Atlantic article, but I do not personally believe that researchers like Puin and Von Bothmer are trying to “cover the truth of Islam from the masses by means of their so-called ‘intellectualism’”.

I should put in the disclaimer that although I’m an “Orientalist” in (I hope) the respectable sense of the term, my connection to Islamic studies is in science (hay’a and riya.d) rather than Qur’an or hadith, which are most relevant to this issue. Nonetheless, in my experience this sort of complaint is a very typical reaction to academic attempts to situate a religious scripture within a textual tradition. Many Christians and Jews resent or reject to varying degrees the conclusions of modern biblical scholarship (see this King James Version site for an extreme example); many Hindus oppose academic theories about the temporal evolution of the Vedas; and the list goes on for practically all religions with a written scripture.

To forestall an impassioned philippic replete with long excerpts about why the Islamic scriptural tradition is demonstrably incomparably purer than that of any other religion, let me just say that I’ve heard it before and I don’t buy it. Yes, Islamic scribal traditions are some of the best and most trustworthy in the world, and yes, many hadith and other religious historical writings are very solidly attested; but all scriptural traditions show a divergence between what their own theologians claim about them and what modern secular scholarship concludes, and anyone who does textual scholarship just has to live with that. If you feel that that attitude brands me as a hostile deceitful biased foolish sarcastic Eurocentric imperialist in the worst tradition of Orientalism, I’ll just have to live with that too.

And yet still some Orientalists have the provacative nerve to say that we should learn from the Renaissance or Reformation!

Absolutely. All eras and cultures have much to learn from all others, and that’s in the best tradition of Orientalism.

In the Name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.

It seems that many of you have decided to take me in circles, so that not it seems to me that you resemble cats who chase their tales not knowing what they are chasing.

It was never my intention to rule out the possibility of Western scholarship being reliable or authentic. I was stressing the decietful tactics of the Orientalist Western scholars because of the fact that the great majority of them do have a sense of hostility towards Islam. There is absolutely no correspondence or consideration for traditional Islamic scholarship. It is quite obvious that the majority of these Orientalists have succumbed to their own biases and misconceptions about Islam, and therefore this is why Islam has been depicted by others as a barbaric, backward minded and hostile religion. Indeed I have myself read some very abusive and yet also false statements about the Prophet of Islam, by precisely this “western scholarship”. Modern studies on the life of the Prophet which depict him as a man who enjoyed fighting wars are totally untrue and in fact a reversal of the real personality of the Prophet.

I would just like to give one example where this so called orientalist scholarship has greatly confused the perception of Islam by others. From the middle of the nineteeth century onwards, with the rise of the discipline of the “history of philosophy” in Germany and then other European countries, combined with the development of Oriental studies, the attention of a number of Western scholars turned to Islamic philosophy, which they sought to study “scientfically”. This Orientalist view of Islamic philosophy, while contributing much to the editions of texts and historical data, was primarily philological and historical rather than philosophical, the appearance of a figure such as Henry Corbin being quite an exception. At best this view has dealt with Islamic philosophy in the context of cultural history or the history of ideas but hardly ever as philosophy. The fact that in the West the study of Islamic philosophy continues to be largely confined to departments of Oriental, Middle Eastern or Islamic Studies, and is rarely treated in philosophy departments, is not only due to the narroe confines of much of modern philosophy, which has reduced philosophy to logic and lingustics. It is also due to a large extent to the way Islamic philosophy has been studied and presented by Orientalists for over a century.

To make matters even more complicated it is necessary to point also to the understanding of Islamic philosophy by three generations of Muslim scholars themselves, scholars who, while Muslim, have learned their Islamic philosophy from Western sources and still look upon their ow intellectual identity through the eyes of others. The later group have produced a number of works in Arabic, Turkish, Urdu and English - and much less so to Persian - which seem to deal with Islamic philosophy from the islamic point of view but in reality reflects works of Western scholars which they then try to accomodate to their own situation. One needs only to look at the number of universities in Pakistan and India, the land of such figures as Shah Waliullahof Delhi, where the history of De Boer is still taught, a work according to which Islamic philosophy came to an end six hundred years before Shah Waliullah.

All these embodiments of the Islamic philosophical tradition have received treatments in various histories of Islamic philosophy which have appeared in both Islamic and Western languages during the past few decades although most available works still reflect the Western views of Islamic philosophy, whether it be in the older school going back to the midieval period or modern Orientalism, which shares one major feature with the earlier school in that it also considers Islamic philosophy to have come to an end with Ibn Rushd or soon after.

There is also an Islamic philosophy seen by the West as part of its own intellectual tradition and usually referred to as “Arabic Philosophy”. This view saw Islamic philosophy as having stopped abruptly with Ibn Rushd (Averroes), when the influence of Islamic philosophy upon the West diminished and gradually died out. For over seven centuries i such places as Paris, Louvain, Padua, and Bologna this version of Islamic philosophy has been taught as part and parcel of Western intellectual history. Moreover, this “Eurocentric” view os Islamic philosophy, as you rightly called it, has been taken in the West for Islamic philosophy itself, a view that has been confirmed during this century by much of the scholarship from the Arab world, some of whose well-known figures have found in the European identification of Islamic philosophy with Arabic philosophy a solid theoritical support for the suppositions of Arab nationalism. In any case this understanding of Islamic philosophy and theology, has produced number of great scholars who, however, until quite recently have preferred to remain impervious to the eight centuries of philosophy after Averroes and the fact that Islamic philosophy is not only “midieval” but also contemporary if not modern.

And so as the above example shows, it is clear that Western scholarship has indeed mingled the facts with speculations or suppositions. One of the greatest drawbacks to Orientalist scholarship and research of Islamic studies is the fact that they hardly ever try to study the traditional Islamic studies and texts themselves, and usually prefer to satisfy themselves of its ‘interpretation’ made by Western and Oriental scholars. This totally defeats the purpose of objectivity which Western scholars so fervently boast about.

As a conclusion it I would just like to say that the site that Ben provided with the articles at the Atlantic on the authenticity of the Quran is very obviously an anti-islamic site. What will you call me for saying this? Will you say that I am backward minded? Or maybe that I am just being too emotional? Or maybe that I am a fanatic who does not except any intellectual criticism? If that is what some of you think, then so’ll be it, as if I would care what others think of me. I have shown very clearly only a few of the objections that could be made against Western scholarship. I am not afraid of being criticized for my views. Nor do I care for those who would call me an extremist. These accusations are very far from the truth. And even if, for the sake of the argument, I do not accept any criticism of Islam (which is not at all true), then why dont you except any criticism of Orientalism and Western scholarship?

In any case there are the few exceptions like in every case. Some Orientalist writers have indeed supported the tenets of Islam and attacked their contemporaries for their one-sided misconceptions. They have not done this for any personal purpose in mind. Rather because they have looked deep between the words, and have seen all of the flaws in modern orientalist scholarship that I have pointed out above.

The Atlantic site provided many quotes and examples of this Orienalist disease of misrepresentation and hostility towards Islam, as can be seen by those who visit the site. They provide quotes by Western scholars who are hostile towards Islam and also admit those individuals hostility! Anyways I am very tired of typing. Take care all. May God bless you. Peace :slight_smile:

Averroes: *it is clear that Western scholarship has indeed mingled the facts with speculations or suppositions. One of the greatest drawbacks to Orientalist scholarship and research of Islamic studies is the fact that they hardly ever try to study the traditional Islamic studies and texts themselves, and usually prefer to satisfy themselves of its ‘interpretation’ made by Western and Oriental scholars. This totally defeats the purpose of objectivity which Western scholars so fervently boast about. *

Sadly, in many cases that has been only too true. But the Qur’anic scholars mentioned in the Atlantic article do read Arabic and do read the original texts. It seems to me that in their case, you are attacking their scholarship because you don’t like their premise: i.e., that “the Koran is a scripture with a history like any other.” That may be heresy to some Muslims, but it’s the professional creed of a textual scholar—of whatever religious persuasion.

Yes, as I said, secular textual scholarship always challenges theological claims for scripture, whether among Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or anyone else. But that’s not the same thing as “Orientalist” bigotry.

In the Name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.

I just thought I might comment on one last point that had been raised earlier, the fact that Islamic philosophy and its history also contained many scholars and individuals from other faiths - eg. Christians and Jews. While it is not my intention to deny the above mentioned statement, it does need some explanation and elaboration. Indeed there were many great Philosophers in the Islamic world who had an impact on Islamic philosophy and its movement, such as Sadiah Gaon al-Fayyuni, Judah Halevi, Maimonides, and others. But what should be noted is that these scholars and great personalities were usually educated in the cultural heritage of Islam, where they were given their rights to learn and preach their ideas as they pleased.

But then the question arises. Why call Islamic philosophy Islamic philosophy if there were a few philosophers and scientists of other faiths who contributed to its advancement?

First of all, the tradition of Islamic philosophy is deeply rooted in the world view of the Quranic revelation and functions within a cosmos in which prophecy and revelation is accepted as a blinding reality that is the source not only of ethics but also of knowledge. It is therefore what Henry Corbin quite rightly called la philosophie prophetique. Secondly, while being philosophy in the fullest sense of the word, its very conception of ‘al aql’ (reason/intellect) was transformed by the intellectual and spiritual universe within which it functioned in the same way that reason as transformed by the rationalism of the Age of Enlightenment began to function differently from the ratio and intellectus of St. Thomas. This fact is an undeniable truth for anyone who has studied Islamic philosophy from within the tradition and it remains an essential reality to consider despite the attempt of not only Western but also Westernized Muslim scholars who, having surrendered to the rationlism of modern philosophy, now wish to read this understanding of reason back to Islamic philosophy. Thirdly, the Islamic philsophers were mostly Muslim and nearly all of them devout in their following of the Shariah. It should never be forgotten that the paragon of rationlistic philosophy in Islam, Ibn Rushd, long considered in the robe of Averroes as the epitome of rationalism in the West, was the chief religious authority of Cordova (modern Spanish Cordoba) and that Mulla Sadra, one of the greatest Islamic metaphyscians, journeyed seven times on foot to Mecca and died during the seventh pilgramage. There are also other reasons, but I think this information should suffice for now.

You seem to think that its enough to know the Arabic language or to be somewhat learned in linguistics is enough to be able to interpret the Quran or its compilation and history!! Thats nonsense. Thats so far from the truth that its not even worth commenting upon. You seem to forget that the compilation of the Quran DOES indeed have a history within the Islamic traditional circles themselves. Your ignorance of this fact again shows how Western scholarship is capable of brainwashing its followers to the extent that they would not even know such a crucial fact - the fact that it does have a history in Islam, a lot more complicated than Orientalists mend it out to be. Thats exactly what I mean by distortion of facts and meanings and truths, called “tahreef” in Arabic.

Hehe, it seems the more you people write on this subject the more I see the truth of the matter. Anyways, take care :slight_smile:

Averroes: *You seem to forget that the compilation of the Quran DOES indeed have a history within the Islamic traditional circles themselves. Your ignorance of this fact again shows how Western scholarship is capable of brainwashing its followers to the extent that they would not even know such a crucial fact *

This crucial fact is not only well-known to Western scholarship, it’s even mentioned in the Atlantic article:

Hi,
I was shocked and amused to see the atlantic site.Anyone who has read the Quran will either be saddened by the attack or purely amused at what the human being will do to prove that their theory is right.
I also sent the link to a few of my friends as a joke.'cos i consider such things a joke.It doesn’t matter where they come from.Reasons,when i started reading,i thought that this was a site trying to give knowlege about the Quran from the western perspective,little did i know.

HERES THE JOKE(Hope you agree):
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In some pious Muslim circles it is held that worn-out or damaged copies of the Koran must be removed from circulation; hence the idea of a grave, which both preserves the sanctity of the texts being laid to rest and ensures that only complete and unblemished editions of the scripture will be read.
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Nope.We burn 'em and the time that happened was during Usmans caliphate.Usman was a friend and companion of the prophet and when he became caliph,it was feared that the Quran needed to be preserved.This was because there were many muslims who had memorized its entire text by heart and there were written versions of the texts written by some followers of the prophet who were also told upon revelation,the position of the verse in conjunction with other verses.This made the Quran well preserved at the time,however since Islam had spread quite a lot in only a few years after the prophet’s death,there were many versions in circulation that tribes had compiled for themselves.The difference was not really text,it was pronunciation.Different tribes had different dialects and tones and in arabic a slight change of pronunciation can change meanings of things.It was not a really serious matter until a lot of the early followers of the prophet were killed in the battles.Then muslims who were concerned about the fact that all traces of the Quran could be wiped out in war or “eroded” by history,approached the caliph.He appointed a learned man on the job and created a council where people who had written texts and people who had memorized the Quran all created the authorative book version of the Quran.It may be said that any one person could have done the job as was previously donr,but the council and checking was done to ensure that no mistakes were committed(and of course so many people knew the whole Quran by heart and would object if the council tried to add anything).This produced an error free version of the Quran.Hazrat Usman ordered all other copies of the Quran be removed and replaced with this throughout the lands.It may be said that the Caliphate was very large and so it would not have been wise to take each copy and check for errors as these were not produced after verifying each and every verse.Therefore he just simply declared all of them be destroyed to make the job of preserving the Quran possible.If you think he added any scientific facts to it you must be mad as this whole saga took place in the time of the prophet only a few years after his death(Usman was after all the prophet’s friend).Thus all the written versions,also those used in verifying the approved version
were simply destroyed to avoid a fuss.Nobody objected 'cos they could verify this version because a lot of the guys knew it by heart anyway.This was not for the people of that time but for people who were going to have no means to do the verification themselves after all the memorizers had died.
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In some pious Muslim circles it is held that worn-out or damaged copies of the Koran must be removed from circulation; hence the idea of a grave, which both preserves the sanctity of the texts being laid to rest and ensures that only complete and unblemished editions of the scripture will be read.
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Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam’s first two centuries – they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence.
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The authoritative versions are in existence.I don’t think Usman lived for two hundred years or for that matter for two hundred years after the prophets death.This means that the guy writing this has a serious problem with dates and calculations.'cos to be the earliest it had to be one of the destroyed copies and if steps were taken to destroy it,they would have been burned.

Muslims do not bury the Quran.In fact we do not allow it to touch the ground.It is considered great disrespect,so you can understand why i was laughing at this statement of going to lengths to justify the burial.

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This is just the beginning.If i were to poke fun at every line in the article i could.If you want to accept with me that this is a lame effort to spread misinformation,about islam well very good.Otherwise i could go on and on.There are so many things that are just funny e.g why would the muslims rewrite over a piece and of course the finders just knew that it would show under ultraviolet light.Ha Ha funny.Did they have special rubbers to rub the ink or something and write over the parchment.Why go through all the trouble unless you had a very large shortage of writing materials and enviromental conservation and recycling was the norm :slight_smile: How come they have to justify their inability to produce any verses that they have found lacking in this copy or differences for the 11 years that they claim these texts have been in circulation.And they justify it by saying that they are not presenting any discrepancies found 'cos of the way salman rushdie was treated,so they are keeping everything a secret and by the way so and so professor of this university in this city found the discrepancies,but hush we are keeping it a secret by publishing it on the web

I could go on and on but you would never agree because you probably believe in all that they are saying 'cos they’ve all got scientific degrees.

Nothing but hogwash and bullshit.
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You might be interested in seeing what the author of the Atlantic article says in a later letter about his motives and choices in writing it. For example:

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Then where did all the buried copies come from? Is it your belief that there were never any Muslims who buried Korans?

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This, of course, is a straw man.

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Ah, but they didn’t say that they were Uthman’s Korans. They said that the Korans from Yemen were the oldest in existence. Before you criticise the author’s “problem” with dates and calculations, perhaps you should remove the beam from your own eye?

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So how did they all become buried?

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Actually, the use of UV light is a standard technique in paleography, and they would have been remiss in not using it.

Is it your assertion that the writing was placed there by the researchers using invisible ink?

-Ben

Well Kimsht, I dont think that he would outrightly admit his tru intentions to the public :slight_smile: Its pretty obvious. I already said that hostility and evil intentions are even more effective when they come under the form of intellectual words, and when the audience for which the article is published thinks that he is being totally objective. Its really not that hard to make people think your being objective, when in fact this is the opposite of reality. Any person with as much learning and studying as you should be able to notice this tendency. Anyways you had no point at all to your last post.

As for the one where you claimed that Orientalist scholars do know the history behind the Quranic compilation from a traditional point of view, then this is a contradiction. Because at first they say that Muslims deny a “historical context” to the Quranic revelation, and then they claim that they do indeed have one. In any case they still only dealt with the “controversial” issues, while leaving out the consensus of the scholars! Objectivity?? I think not. And even that short somewhat distorted history lesson that they provide you with is from a Western outlook and view.

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This is, rather obviously, an ad hominem argument.

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Oh, heaven forbid that anyone should be fooled into listening to what a Jew has to say. rolleyes

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Again, the genetic fallacy. If someone is learned in the study of Islam, that doesn’t count unless they are a Muslim. Self-fulfilling prophecy, anyone?

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How do you know that? Are you familiar with their work, or did you only read the article?

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Why do you keep bringing up Christianity? Who cares about Christianity?

And why do I keep having to ask you the same questions over and over again? Why can’t you just answer a straightforward question?

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Do you have a citation for this?

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Fascinating! So you’re saying that the individual verses of the Koran are in a different order, verse by verse? I thought that the order of the suras was different, but not the order of verses within a sura.

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Such as?

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It’s funny- inerrantists of any stripe seem to be unable to admit when they made a mistake. You had speculated that I got my information from a website, when I had already said that I got it from the Atlantic. You’ve never acknowledged that you made a mistake, but that’s not surprising- I get the same thing from Christian fundamentalists.

You’ve entirely lost sight of the entire point of my argument. You said that we can be assured of the authenticity of the Koran because all scholars, regardless of faith or nationality, believe that it is the Koran of Mohammed. I disputed whether all scholars agree with you, and pointed to this article as proof. In all your flood of argument over whether these scholars can be believed, you seem to have forgotten that these scholars, whether they are right or wrong, exist, and so you can’t claim that all scholars agree with you. You made the same sort of argument with regard to evolution: you claimed that the Koran doesn’t disagree with science, claimed that evolution isn’t part of science, and then, rather than admit that the Koran does disagree with science because it disagrees with evolution, you changed the subject and talked about whether evolution is true. Whether it’s true or not isn’t what’s at issue. What’s at issue is whether the Koran disagrees with modern science, and it does.
I don’t expect you to admit that you were wrong on either point (you are, after all, an inerrantist) but I think I should mention it because I’m not the only one who is increasingly convinced that your aim here is not to have a real discussion, but is instead to flood us with a lot of talk of the past glories of Islam and irrelevant criticisms of Christianity.

-Ben

I’m going to post in bold, this time, so that maybe you get the point…

** If there are studies that show something contrary to your claims, you can’t just go whining about “Orientalist bias” and expect us to believe a word you say. **

You back your statements up with facts, and show or tell us where we can obtian those facts independantly of you.

If you think a study is biased against Islam, you show us evidence that the author has a bias. If you think it odd thast UV light is used, you go look it up on the web–though you’ll discover that it is a standard technique in dealing with things that may have been covered over (many works of famous painters have been dealt with in a similar manner, to discover earlier paintings underneath, or which parts are original and which parts retouch, etc).

Quit whining about “bias” and show us somew
evidence–I personally know some Islamic scholars (or Muslim scholars or Arabic scholars or whatever you feel like calling them…my head hurts), and they are upright, well-versed individuals. Not only that, but some of them are from various Middle Eastern states.

So how bout it, eh?