Islam = intolorance to other religions ??

Most militant? I disagree. Most conservative, probably. But that’s not synonomous with militant. ObL and some ( by no means all, or even most ) of his cadres accepted, SA has traditionally not been a hotbed of terrorist activity ( at least not since the 1920’s ). And I think it’s wealth has a lot to do with that, though there are probably other factors at work as well.

Insomuch as this might be starting to change these days, it probably has some relation to the increasingly frayed nature of the SA’s paternalistic welfare state. It’s not just the extremely impoverished and ignorant who are prey to the appeal of extreme idelogies. In that part of the world, the educated but status-less, who are aware of the luxuries of the wealth and position, but denied what may seem like their just due by repressive or corrupt regimes, are also vulnerable to being radicalized. University students all over the Third World are a case in point :wink: .

Not really, in my opinion. But I don’t think anyone in here is making that argument. It’s not that some Muslims may hold the U.S. personally responsible for their economic plight ( though doubtless some do, for whatever reason ). It’s just that economic inequality can help create a situation where radicalism can more readily breed. It’s certainly not strictly deterministic. Monty’s correct that poor does not necessarily equal violent radical. But I think it is only logical to assume that it can be a push in the wrong direction. It’s a factor, and a very important one IMHO, but not the only factor.

milroyj, grienspace: I don’t have a quote handy ( but a web search should yield info ), but just to add a specific name to Collounsbury’s list, how about the underground Army of God, which truly does seem to advocate the murder of all abortion providers on religious grounds. Their clerical components are no doubt fly-by-night preachers of some sort, with obviously little respect or standing in the greater Christian community. But similarily ObL’s pronouncements don’t speak for a majority either.

Now you can quite legitimately criticize the fact that more moderate Muslim “clerics” don’t take a more publically condemnatory stance vis-a-vis ObL. I deplore that sort of “closing of the ranks” as well. As do some liberal Muslims I know ( Muslim Guy on this board being among them, I believe ). It’s a sad situation. But it doesn’t change the fact that ObL’s particular brand of fanaticism isn’t widely accepted in the Muslim world.

I daresay even many fundamentalists aren’t on the same wavelength as he is. No doubt there are some “moderate” members of , say, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, that whatever their general level of intolerance, would probably be just as eager to distance themselves from ObL as Falwell would be to distance himself from Fred Phelps. I’ve already mentioned elsewhere the internal split in al-Quaeda in 1992 over the potential killing of innocents in a planned embassy bombing in Riyadh. But just as another example, I remember catching an NPR interview ( I think ) with a long-time expert on Islamic fundamentalism. That person pointed out that in discussions with the members of most Islamist groups in most places, when the question came up of what was more important, the Greater Jihad ( the internal struggle with one’s self ) or the Lesser Jihad ( the external struggle against Islam’s enemies ), they’d role their eyes and reply with the equivalent of “Gee, there is a reason it’s called the Greater Jihad you know.” Everywhere but in Afghanistan - There the results were just the opposite.

The Taliban, as I believe MEBuckner very astutely pointed out elsewhere, really are the Islamic equivalent of the Christian Identity Movement. And al-Quaeda are the equivalent of the Army of God - Just a hell of a lot bigger, better financed, and with a lot more targets.

  • Tamerlane

sigh excepted, not accepted.

  • Tamerlane

Monty, if violent people are the ignorant followers of hatemongers, and if poverty is the cause of their ignorance, do you still maintain that poverty is not a causative factor in violence? We are not talking here of theft-related violence, so it is clear that poverty does not actively lead people to it, but it affects their susceptibility to it by robbing them of the ability and incentive to avoid it. I don’t believe that it is an excuse, or that we should feel sorry for these people instead of condemning what they do. But they are pawns in the hands of whoever it is that chooses to manipulate them. It is clear that the power-hungry bin Ladens of the world are no peasants, but then, religion is not what leads them to their struggle for power, but the instrument with which they effectively obtain it. I have met Muslims who genuinely wish to devote their lives to God, and Usama bin Laden has nothing in common with them.

Sam Stone made a good point in bringing up the case of Saudi Arabia. However, the Saudis belong to a sect of Islam of which many Muslims disapprove. It is unfair to judge the entire religion based on one sect. In addition, the fact that there are militant people who are not impoverished does not change my view that militant people find support among the impoverished. Without this support, they would be ineffective lunatics. It would be easy to track them down and punish them for their actions.

I do not believe that the poverty of Third World Nations is the fault of the U.S. (I can imagine that people with an interest in economics could argue this point, but I can’t.) Nor do I believe that the Muslim world fails to emphasise science and business. Arab Muslims have made major contributions in the mathematics and astronomy, as well as many other fields of science. Omar Khayyam, for example, is revered among Arabs and Muslims as a scientist, although in the West he is more widely known for his poetry. More recently, a Pakistani Muslim won the Nobel Prize in Physics. There are Muslims who are taught that the only knowledge they ever need to learn is contained in the Quran, and these are the underprivileged children who are expected to work alongside their parents and earn their keep rather than attend school.

I can imagine that fundamentalists might discourage education. It would make sense for them to discourage any behaviour which could encourage their number to question the extreme beliefs which unite them. Sam Stone, you indicated that fundamentalist Christians are also guilty of elevating religion above science. If so, then this might be a problem with fundamentalist religion as a whole. If this is your point, then I agree that fundamentalist religion is hateful and despicable. However, I believe that fundamentalism is not peculiar to any one religion. As Captain Amazing pointed out, even a religion as peaceful as Buddhism can be corrupted by those with an extreme point of view. Every religion is unfortunately open to this sort of warped interpretation.

While I believe that poverty makes it harder to fight ignorance, I have found that there are plenty of ignorant people who do not have this excuse. Nor do they all have the excuse of fundamentalist religion. Perfectly ordinary people were manipulated to carry out the commands of Hitler, whom we all now perceive as the greatest evil ever to have beset the earth. Japanese pilots agreed to carry out kamikazi missions in World War II.

Does a non-democratic government cause poverty, or is it the other way around? The democratic system failed miserably in Pakistan over the ten year period after the death of President Zia in 1988. The military coup was seen as a welcome end to the escalating corruption into which rival political parties had effectively dragged the country. This is not to say that democracy cannot succeed in Pakistan. But I believe that as long as it is based on a primarily illiterate electorate, it has a dubious future.

Look up Army of God, the whole legal wrangle about the Abortion Doctor “death list”, Randall Terry. You’d have to living under a fucking rock not to know that the extreme end of American anti-Abortionist movement has called for the death of “Abortionist Murders etc.” – bloody hell man, just do a search on abortion on this board and you’ll see this very point discussed.

Now, let me be clear for those with a desire to misread, that I’ve not ascribed this to the “ant-Abortion” movement, much of which is peaceful and principaled. But there is an extreme wing.

Sure, that’s one read. There is the Fred Phelps-type folks who see Xtianity as giving a green light to destroying the evil ones.

Same game as in Islam.

I’m emphatically not attributing America’s sins to Xtianity. I’m pointing out that even in the USA there is a fringe of folks who identify themselves as Xtian who, perversly surely, use “Xtianity” as they understand it to justify violence agianst other groups. Gays, Abortion doctors. That’s it.

If folks could unlearn the fallacy of composition, we’d have much clearer discussions.

Yeah, and where do roots for some of these “young punks” ideas come from? From Fred Phelpsian types. That is, from a perversion of the religion. Of course others may not but its pretty clear that “religiously” motivated bashing is there. Sure, I’ll agree in a hot NY second it’s a perversion of the religion but its there.

So apparently calls for genocide and/or murder are NOT a crime in some Muslim countries? Afghanistan and Iran come to mind. Is that the case?

Well, such calls are certainly not necessarily punished, whether there is a law on the books. In some countries. Muslim or not. (E.g. one of the key leaders in the Rwanda genocide by Hutu extremists against the Tutsis & non-extremist Hutus was none other than a RC priest.)

The lesson is there are bad folks distributed across religions. Is this really a revelation?

A revelation? hardly.

Here’s what we have:

United States: Genocide is wrong, and calls for such are illegal. Fighting against actual genocide, to preserve freedom in the world, is a worthy goal worth dying for.

Taliban: Our “Supreme Leader” of the “Islamic Emirate”, the “Commander of the Faithful” says, “it is the religious duty of Muslims to kill all Americans, wherever they are.”

Now, in your pseudo-intellectual, ivory-tower worldview, are individuals allowed to make value judgements regarding the two?

I have, and I’ll stick with the folks on the side of freedom, not the genocidal maniacs. YMMV

Gee someone’s feeling inadequate.

Yes, you’ve finally got the characters in the story right.

Hah. Ah, ivory tower? Now that’s a good one. Baseless and inaccurate but a nice attempt at a save.

Snort. You think I’ve not condemned the Taleban? You’ve understood little that I’ve written then.

*…I’ll stick with the folks on the side of freedom, not the genocidal maniacs. *

Good. However, this does not prove diddly-squat about the OP’s query about whether Islam is intrinsically intolerant, or more intolerant than other faiths. All your comment shows is that the United States, as a secular democracy with a strong societal commitment to individual freedoms, is on the whole more religiously tolerant than the government of the Taliban, which is an oppressive theocracy run by militant extremists. Gosh, really? Well slap my ass and call me Sally, who knew?

This does not mean, of course, that it’s justifiable to paint Islam in general with the same brush as the Taliban, or to conclude that because some Muslims are genocidal maniacs, it must be the fault of Islam as a religion. That would be blatant and ignorant religious bigotry. But I’m sure that that’s not what you were attempting to conclude.

Nice straw man, milroyj. I’ve seen few finer.

Going back to the kick-off line from this most recent exchange:

This may well be the case. Calls for murder and genocide were not crimes in the U.S. until very recently. (The author of The Wizard of Oz has a fairly widely known call for genocide in his public writings.) Pointing out that some vague percentage of Muslims and the countries where they live have fewer restrictions against hate speech than the U.S. and its fairly recent legislation in the same area does not provide evidence that the entire Islamic world encourages hatred or murder (which was, more or less, the point of the OP).

Maybe you have. But you’ve also asserted the following:

Overall, the treatment of Muslim women in Muslim countries, and that of Christian women in Western countries, is more or less equal.

The issuance of genocidal/murderous fatwas by the leader of the Taliban, or by other prominent Muslim clerics, is equal to the ridiculous godhatesfags.com, and is somehow indicative of Christian beliefs.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by tomndebb *
**

“Calls” for murder and genocide are not now, and never have been, an especially serious problem. By contrast, inducing, enticing, and conspiring with others to commit those murder and genocide most assuredly is a problem. Any just how “recently,” Tom, did it dawn on us to make those acts punishable as crimes?

milroyj: *Overall, the treatment of Muslim women in Muslim countries, and that of Christian women in Western countries, is more or less equal.

The issuance of genocidal/murderous fatwas by the leader of the Taliban, or by other prominent Muslim clerics, is equal to the ridiculous godhatesfags.com, and is somehow indicative of Christian beliefs.*

I don’t think Collounsbury said that. Certainly, nobody is arguing that Taliban-style oppression of women is common in Christian cultures. (Although domestic violence and wife-beating, for example, certainly occur among Christians, especially among members of Christian fundamentalist sects, some of whom also have quite rigid and harsh patriarchal rules about the subjection of women to men.) The point is that oppression of Muslim women in some Muslim cultures is not necessarily “indicative of Muslim beliefs”, any more than male-supremacist fundamentalist Christians in America are necessarily “indicative of Christian beliefs.”

Likewise, the difference between murderous fatwas issued by Muslim extremists and the “kill the sinners” rhetoric of Christian extremists seems to me more social than theological. Christian extremists who want other people dead are doubtless just as sincere, and just as convinced that their beliefs are a reflection of true religion, as Muslim extremists who want other people dead. The difference is that in our secular, multicultural, relatively wealthy and educated society, such fundamentalists get a lot less popular support than they do in many countries devastated by poverty and conflict.

I don’t think you can make a credible case that this somehow reflects an intrinsic superiority of Christianity over Islam when it comes to religious tolerance. For one thing, of course, Christian societies in the past have actively endorsed, and even attempted, the genocide of members of other religions (and some, such as many of the so-called “Christian Reconstructionists” in America, support that position even today). For another, most Muslims don’t support such intolerance, any more than most Christians do.

It’s true that extremist and violent Muslim fanatics appear to be more numerous (and certainly more visible these days) than comparably extremist and violent Christian fanatics. But if you’re trying to interpret that as a result of some kind of difference in the essential natures of the two faiths, rather than as the result of a complicated mix of a lot of social, political, and cultural factors, I think you’re way off base.

Bah, more goal-posting shifting and straw men.

Only in your straw man arguments.
(a) West=/ Xtianity.
(b) Fallacy of Composition
Tom and I have both pointed out time and time again that as in Xtian countries (see a, but not limited to this point) there are a whole variety of treatments and that some Muslim countries have had more progressive stances than some Xtian countries --at least in terms of measurable rights-- in this century.

Another tendatious and frankly dishonest strawman. More laughable as my posts on the Fred Phelps end of the spectrum explicitely noted the contrary to your assertion that I argued Phelpsian dogma was “somehow indicative of Christian beliefs.” Anyone can look back and test your reading comprehension on that one.

As for the prominent Muslim cleric thing, in general with the exception of Ayatollah Khomieni, a Shiite leader, prominent mainstream Muslim Ulema (men learned in theology, there is no clergy per se in Islam – I could be a “mullah” if I could get anyone to follow me. Or you for that matter.) don’t issue “genocidal/murderous” fatwas. Stupid ignorant ones, like Pokeman is inspired by the devil (that’s a hoot) and lots of things that would sound just right at home in your average fundie xtian church, but calls for murder. No.

Cite please?

Depends on how you want to define them. We’ve been passing various pieces of “hate crime” legislation for a bit less than 20 years.

And inducing or enticing others to commit genocidal acts was a very real problem until we sort of called it quits at Wounded Knee. Since then we’ve generally made the language a bit more flowery and dressed up the calls as being “to restore order” or even, on occasion, “to defend freedom.”

Lest someone try to portray my opinion as somehow supporting the Taleban, let me point out that my specific points on this thread have been that
the blanket condemnation of Islam is too broad,
and
the blanket association of Islam to the minority practices of the Taleban (or even the larger Wahabbist movement) have been broadly asserted but never documented.

Crushing al-Qaeda and its like-minded terrorist organizations is a necessity. Alienating the entire Muslim world, thereby aiding al-Qaeda in their recruitment efforts, by ignorantly lumping all Muslims into a straightjacket of misinformation is counterproductive.

We’ve done this before. In both the wars against the Seminole and the wars against the Natchez, we arrived at a point where those groups were divided between people who chose to fight and people who chose to make peace. In each case, we lumped them into a single category, forcing the peace-makers to join the warriors and extending the wars for over five years (Natchez) and over 20 years (Seminole).

Since this is the Straight Dope, it would be nice to see us fighting ignorance (and bigotry) instead of supporting it.

Oddly Tom has rather captured the point I’ve been less-than-clearly trying to advance in general about strategy towards fighting al-Qaeda.

grienspace: Cite please?

Sure. For example, here’s an Australian Christian organization’s article on the overrepresentation of fundamentalist Christians in false “recovered memory” cases, which notes:

Nope, not at all what I’m trying to conclude.

OTOH, why is holding up Fred Phelps as an example of Christian beliefs or actions NOT considered “blantant and ignorant religous bigotry”?

Kimstu, Well I can’t say that your cite is very authoritative. All you’ve offered is an unsubstantiated assertion by an ex-reporter in some obscure foreign e-zine.