Burn girls to death in the name of Islam? Nice going, Wahhabis

The BBQ Pit
1

What does it take to get them to re-examine a system that causes this kind of tragedy? What does it take to remove the power from those ignorant subhuman monsters. Islamic law itself requires protection of life and limb above all other considerations.

That’s truly disgusting. How do those mutaween derive a sense of virtue from a hateful act like that? The exhortation to do good and refrain from evil thing is distorted into something monstrous in the world of fundamentalism. Add a love of power, rigidity, and ignorance to religion, and you have something that, frankly, is even worse than irreligion.

Some serious rethinking of Saudi law, women and Islamic morality called for, for the sake of those poor dead girls, burned alive by those mutaween. They should be tried for murder.

I cannot fathom the inhumanity one needs to have to make it possible to prevent children from escaping a burning building. Whatever it was these people were taught, it turned them into something other than human.

http://robots.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/14/saudi.fire.reut/index.html

Saudi police face deaths criticism
March 14, 2002 Posted: 6:58 AM EST (1158 GMT)

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia – Saudi media, in a rare criticism of the kingdom’s powerful religious police, have accused the force of hampering efforts to rescue 15 girls who died inside a blazing school.

(deleted text - see below)

2

And this is one of our allies.

Jesus wept.

3

Here’s a great opportunity for one or more of the Princes of House Saud to be noble, and fix these mutaween guys’ little red wagons, but good…
I doubt it will happen though, and am appalled that this ever happened in the first place. May their Prophet (peace be on him) find a just and fitting punishment for them.

4

Please do not post the full text of a copyright article at this message board. Instead include the gist of the item in your own words.

5

I’m sure Jomo Mojo is more aware of this than most americans, but having just assisted last night at a panel discussion “Islam and Violence”, featuring an imam fom CAIR, I shall remind people that not all Muslims think alike vis-à-vis how women should be treated and what is appropriate attire in public.

6

May I suggest the Princess books by Jean Sasson.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0688116752/qid=1016241654/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-7176778-6796063

I weep for the women in these countries.

7

I can hardly imagine you mean to imply that anyone in their right mind could excuse burning girls to death over a clothing dispute. My God. I hope this will cause the fall of the Wahhabi system.

So what did CAIR have to say, anyway?

8

Forgive me, Arnold, but how do you know? Why do you assumew that people from another culture, another political worldview, another relgious background, share
the same views of gender equality?

I know there are nice Muslim folks, and I know that Islam in its purest form teaches harrmony and peace, but that form of Islam seems to be dead. When I think of Islam as it is today, I think
honor killings of teenaged girls
suicide bombings in pizza joints and malls in Israel
public beheadings of homosexuals
Daniel Pearl’s death
Teaching Muslim children to hate Jews (Washington Post article)
A contract on Salman Rushdie’s head for writing a book
September 11
Palestinians celebrating the deaths of thousands of Americans

See, the enlightened PC folks want to believe that everyone in on earth shares similar fuzzily liberal views. Sorry, the world isn’t like that.

9

True servants of god would have served as guards for the resued girls and acted to make sure that no one approached them inappropriatly, perhaps even offering them make shift covering to minimize their exposure. How is it that grown men are so afraid of some school girls?

10

that’s medieval, man. Cruel.

We(as a race of humans) let something like this exist?

Why do some Muslims like to repress their women so much? There must be some really messed up sexual issues deep down in them.

11

No, I mean that many Muslims would have deplored letting these young women die, and that not all Muslims think women should cover their hair when in public.

The imam representing CAIR talked mostly about the Koran in relation to the terrorist attacks of 11 September 2001.
He would read a passage in arabic from the Qu’ran, translate it to English, and then explain why the passage, in context, shows that you should attack others / kill infidels / etc… only in self-defense, or when they are physically attacking you. Otherwise you should be tolerant.

12

Because, as I alluded to in my previous post, I heard just last night a Qu’ran scholar and imam representing CAIR explain that women have equal rights.

Are you saying that all Muslims have identical views on the rights of women? :confused:

13

The “religious” police, hereinafter referred to as power-mad ignorami, evidently think that the girls, had they run outside into the public area unscarfed, would have deserved execution. They just saved the corrupt regime in Saudi Arabia the cost of trial and execution by forcing the girls to run back into the burning building.

Of course, Jomo Mojo (love the screen-name, btw) is correct in that the Sharia requires preservation of life. The problem is that the power-mad ignorami have little, if any, valid and competent instruction in Sharia or the Quran. The power-mad ignorami know some of the proscribed actions, but certainly are not very conversant with the Hadith, a very large volume of work which is sort of the Muslim version of the Talmud.

Oh, and Tranquilis: It is God’s job in Islam to determine final punishment, not Muhammed’s (PBUH).

For an example of a modern Muslim country, I am fond of pointing to Malaysia and Indonesia. Indonesia’s problems are not religion-based and they certainly are not saddled with the religous police of Saudi Arabia. Whilst in Malaysia, I saw quite a few Muslim girls with uncovered hair, uncovered faces, and wearing shorts or skirts (them, not me)–all in public! But, then, both Malaysia and Indonesia have a far higher literacy rate, and certainly a higher literacy rate for females, than Saudi Arabia does.

The power-mad ignorami of Saudi Arabia are just that, ignorami. They don’t know all that much and therefore are prejudiced against damn near everything, especially females.

14

What I wished the principal of the school had done:

  1. Shot the power-mad ignorami on the scene. But that’d probably get him charged, convicted, and executed for murder.

More realistically:

  1. Hobble the power-mad ignorami on the scene with their own dogmatic approach to reality:

[list=A][li]In Saudi Arabia, according to the Princess books cited above, a Saudi Arabian female is not required to wear the veils until onset of her first mense. The principal (or senior staff member on scene) should have announced to the power-mad ignorami that none of the females had their first mense yet.[/li]
[li]The girls could’ve run outside and then to cover (sorry about that) where they could veil themselves at their safety & convenience.[/li]
Of course, the power-made ignorami could’ve arrested the principal or senior staff member, but how would they prove he intentionally lied? It’s not a crime, even in Saudi Arabia, to be mistaken in the middle of the night.[/list=A]

15

Well, no, not at all. Monty made my point much more eloquently–despite Islam’s teachings of peace and the example of Malaysia (Indonesia is not such a good example of tolerance lately), the bloodyminded fundamentalists seem ignorant of what Islam actually teaches and are intent on passing off their own hateful, misogynist views as official Islamic doctrine.

16

Thats all fine and dandy, any public support for September 11 would be political suicide but what about other acts of terrorism.

From your link, we find that CAIR among many other American Islamic Organizations is a member of the the National Support Committee for Imam Jamil Al-Amin who of course is more popularly known as H. Rap Brown. For those not familiar with this terrorist,

Why don’t these guys direct their energies towards injustices that reflect badly on their religion. Non-muslims criticising injustice against women in the free press is a waste of time. We know CAIR is capable of a voice. I see nothing in the newsletter you cited ** Arnold ** that suggests any desire to cleanup or oppose injustice within the broad spectrum under the Islamic banner. That bothers me.

17

If that was your point, that some Muslims are bloodyminded fundamentalists, then yes, I think Mondy made the point more eloquently.

I’m actually hoping that the posts in this thread will help you see that your negative stereotypes of Islam do not represent the whole picture.

18

The imam from CAIR that spoke in the panel discussion to which I assisted denounced all forms of terrorism.

Terrorist? I don’t know that shooting two police officers makes you a terrorist. Perhaps a murderer. I’m not that familiar with the case of Imam Jamil Al-Amin so maybe you have reasons for using that term.
I looked up the National Support Committee for Imam Jamil Al-Amin. From what I can tell, their position is that he is innocent of that crime, and did not shoot the police officers. That’s not the same thing as advocating violence.
I will give what I believe to be an apt analogy. I belong to an organization that opposes the Death Penalty. In this organization we often “partner” with members of the Catholic clergy, since the Catholic church also opposes the Death Penalty. At one vigil at which I assisted, a proponent of the Death Penalty walked around with a sign stating “The Catholic church supports murder and rape!!” Do you see that as an accurate representation of the Catholic Church’s position?

I’m not sure what actions you expect CAIR to take. I did see a member of that organization speaking against terrorism and for equal rights for women. For gobear’s benefit, I will add that in the audience there were many muslims who applauded the speaker and seemed to agree with what he had to say. In the Q&A period no muslim stood up to challenge his statements.

19

Did you read my posts? I said that I know there are good Muslims and that Islam teaches peace, but that’s not what I’m seeing today. If we were talking about Christianity in 1250, I’d have said the same things about them, if we had had the Internet back in the Middle Ages.

You seem to believe that people are basically good, that if members of a given group, not just Muslims, commit atrocities, that the terrorists, or Crusaders, must be disowned by the majority of the group. I have seen no evidence of that.

Take the example of lynchings in America a century ago. Do you really believe that the majority of white Americans were horrified and hurried to denounce the murderers of innocent blacks? A tiny number of white Americans cared and worked to bring lynching to an end, but the majority didn’t care or actively supported lynching.

Where is the international Muslim outrage at the Saudi perversion of their faith? One CAIR press conference? That’s it? I want to see mass anti-Saudi demonstrations in the streets of every major Middle Eastern capital. I want to see Wahabi extremism denounced by the leading Islamic scholars in every nation. I want to see every Muslim nation cut off ties to the Saudis until they disband the religious police and relax legal restrictions against women.

I won’t be holding my breath.

The truth that good-hearted people cannot face is that they are rare. People in general, including Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, are vicious, hateful, and intolerant, or just indifferent.

Do you think that the Hutu massacres of Tutsis in Rwanda were denounced by the majority of Hutus? Do you think that the majority of Serbs cared about the massacres of Bosnians by the Serbian army? Do you think that the majority of Jordanians abhor honor killings?

Cambodia
Northern Ireland
Palestine/Israel
The Holocaust

Sorry, but most people in the world do not share your belief in tolerance and compassion. It’s a pity, but I believe it to be an accurate assessment of the darkness in the human soul.

20

Now Gobear need I say that not all Muslim countries condone this behaivour, in fact I think that Saudi Arabia would be the worlds worst in human rights abuse (it is not an accurate yard stick for the others). If one can claim that the USA naturaly condems this act, why does one need to “see mass anti-Saudi demonstrations in the streets of every major Middle Eastern capital” to prove the same?

  1. You will see Muslims you are against this.
  2. You will see Muslims who are for it.
  3. You will see Muslims who don’t care, because it is about someone who is from across the world and doesn’t relate to them.

But, why should it be Muslims who are the ones to to speak out against these atrocities? Isn’t it expected that people are against the killing of others, Muslim or not?

Islamic terrorists! Islamic fundamentalist! Why is it that they are Muslims first and murderes, terrorists, uneducated bigots second?

Do people act this way because they are Muslims? or because of multiple factors that could include: poor education, poor upbringing, unfamiliar cultural attitudes towards others, different self experiences, anger, hate, fright or fear, greed, morbid cruelty, or some other reason as to why someone would kill or maim.

Is there a single Islamic factor that would cause this? or is it that most Muslims just want to go through life with their faith; without being “singled out”, “hassled”, or expected to speak out against the atrocities of others who share the same faith.

I don’t think any Muslim needs to speak out against murder as much as any one else would have too. If I am a Muslim why should I have to yell louder then the next guy? I can think of no reason to do so… well I can think of one.

I might scream foul if it kept me from being branded an “extremist” or from being attacked for wearing a headscarf outside my house or from being simply “looked” at differently by others who might not mean bad from it, but misjudge me because of my faith (gobear being a homosexual you should know a lot about this). To “scare” someone into action worries me more because it says a lot about who we are apart from someone who is hundreds of kilometers away.

Maybe it isn’t Muslims that need to change their views, but us in our views of Muslims?

Just MHO