If the history of the last century has shown us anything, it is that humans are superstitious, cruel, and vicious. If Muslims are an exception to this rule, it is news to me. No group of people has more than a tiny minority of decent, tolerant, kind people. This goes for Americans, and, yes, homosexuals.
I wish good things for the Muslims, as well as for all people, but I’m not fool enough to believe that they share the same sentiments. Being that people, or any subset of people, are basically good is just plain naive.
CAIR are disgusting. While nice and clean on the surface, their organization bares deep scars of hatred.
On May 24, 1998, CAIR cosponsered a rally at Brooklyn College that had speakers spouting anti-Semitic rants. One speaker, Wagdy Ghuneim, led the audience with a song containing the lyrics, “No to the Jews, descendants of the apes.”
In 1998 CAIR had a press release condemning a billboard which featured a picture of bin Laden with “the sworn enemy” imposed above him on the grounds that the billboard was “an insult to the hundreds of thousands of Muslims who live in Southern California.”
In 1994 CAIRs executive director, Nihad Awad, said, “I am in support of the Hamas movement.” Hamas has been behind the murder of women and children civilians for years.
CAIR also contributed to the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, which gave money to the families of suicide bombers and encouraged the acts.
Seif Ashwmawy, former publisher of “Voice of Peace” said, “It is a known fact that both AMC (American Muslim Council) and CAIR have defended, apologized for and even rationalized the actions of extremist groups and leaders such as conviction WTC conspirator Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman, Egyptian extremists…{more terrorists listed}”
-Facts taken from the book “American Jihad: The Terrorists Living Among Us” by Steve Emerson, the leading American expert on Islamic fundamentalism in the United States.
You beat me to it. I was just reading about this in the local (Riyadh) paper. It turns out that Prince Naif is giving US $375K to the families as “blood money” and so the case is closed. No punishment for the Mutawwa, no censure, no nothing. An interesting point that no one has raised. Who would be willing to run into a burning building but stop simply because some fanatic with a short thobe and an untrimmed beard simply told him to do so? What sheep!
Another point no one has mentioned is how much the local people suffer from these loons. While the mutawwa give foreigners a bad time, it is nothing compared to what they do to the locals.
Some Hindu sects used to (and in some cases still) do the same thing with excess women - especially widows. Cecil just wrote a column about “suttees” that will appear in a couple of weeks. There is some evidence that at various historic times Egyptians, Vikings and the Chinese did the same thing.
Overzelous religious lunatics come in all flavours, gobear.
I think it is time for us to question fundamentalists and not their religion. This insanity will only stop when we do so.
"It was dawn, and the soldiers at the massive edifice were already short of the usual Friday complement of four paramilitary border guards, who were 20 minutes late arriving for their shift. When the border guards finally got there, Goldstein had already killed 39 Palestinians as they knelt in prayer inside.
Goldstein was a leading activist in Kach, the Jewish extremist group whose symbol is a clenched fist and whose members believe Arabs have to be expelled from Israel and the West Bank"
You cannot tell me that these Palestinians were asking for it, or deserved it as they knelt in prayer. The members of Kach also are fantatic fundamentalists.
Do you accept that point, because what you are saying now in this thread makes it sounds like this sort of insanity and violence is inherent to Islam, and clearly, it is not.
**Anahita, ** scroll up and read my post again. I wrote
I have the impression that most of the posters here believe that humans are basically good, that anytime violence occurs, it must be the act of deranged individuals and deplored by the general population. Sorry, but the reality is that humans are vicious, stupid, murderous beasts. Kindness and mercy are the rarities, not barbarism. Sorry, to disabuse you of your illusions, Anahita, but Muslims are people, too. Jews, Christians, Arabs, Americans–humans are just animals on two feet.
Do you really think that Christianity as it is practiced today has any relation to the teachings of Jesus? Do you think Jesus wanted burnings and persecutions in His name? Do you think the Prophet would recognize Islam today? Do you think the Prophet would allow the religious police to act as they do? Do you think the Prophet would be happy with monarchy and dictatorships in the name of the Compassionate, the Merciful?
No, I have no animus against Muslims, but Muslims are humans, and you can always trust humans to turn a religion of peace into an instrument of terror.
Guys, the fundamentalists in all religions are the ones in charge. Look at the Hindus who burn down mosques and slaughter Muslims in Gujurat. Look at Anahita’s example of Baruch Goldstein and Kach. Look at the Christian fundamentalism in the U.S. that stymies gay rights and tries to ban the teaching of evolution. People of all faiths who wish to practice tolerance and forbearance are rarer than hen’s teeth.
At least the Muslims have been far less bloodthirsty historically than the Christians. Muslims have never burned heretics, launched Crusades, or waged wars of religion as Christian Europe did, all in the name of the Prince of Peace.
And the truly sad thing is that people will be outraged for a while over the deaths of these girls, then they’ll be distracted and forget, and nothing will change. That is what humans do.
I couldn’t have said it better myself, the last 3 paragraphs. Well done!
It is true. This will be in public eye (along with the injustices against Afghani women, Egyptian homosexuals, etc) until another sparkly thing comes along.
Where are the burnings and persecutions by Christians today.
But why aren’t the Hindus burning churches?
Very isolated incident. I don’t see the Jews attacking churches
Yes, but it is the atheists who wish to ban the teachings of creation in the schools, not Christian fundamentalists attempting to ban evolution. In any event the intolerance to gays does not extend to programs for their extermination.
This last quote is what prompted me to respond. Islam was launched by the sword. The holy land was taken for Islam by way of the sword. It is incredulous to suggest that Islam was less bloodthirsty than Christianity historically.
Lets face it. Islam is on trial today. As a whole it is unhealthy, and no-one can change it but from within. The atrocities should not be ignored.
Christianity has evolved. It is not perfect. It has an ugly history as well. But it has constantly been questioned and reexamined from within as well as without. I do not see that happening Islam yet.
I’m so very encouraged that my favorite source of ignorance, greeny, does not contain his lack of knowledge to but one area, but rather freely spreads it around. I suppose that wealth does that, makes you generous.
So greeny takes it upon himself to “correct” gobear – well at least he provides entertainment.
Largely in impoverished areas, such as Africa, rural Latin America. Not so many burnings to my understanding, but persecution, killing of witches and that sort of thing.
Poverty and illiteracy seem to have a universally encouraging effect on our less-than-pleasant side. Encouraging, that. Not that poverty and illiteracy alone are needed, but they do appear to be really fine catalysts.
Well, Greeny that’s a bit of an easy pitch. There aren’t any.
Let me suggest it’s because there are hardly any Xtians at all in Gujurrat, to my knowledge virtually no indigenous Xtians at all in that particular state.
There are, of course, some indigenous Xtians in India in the old coastal ‘factories’ – trading cities conquered by the Portuguese and the French. I’m not well learned on this, but as memory serves, not all has been fine and dandy, but since they are a vanishingly small minority and the real social and political struggle is between the larger Hindu majority (or rather its extremist fringe) and the Muslim minority, which is actually quite numerous in Gujjurat.
And? There’s little reason for Jews attacking churches. You do see some Jews attacking mosques, because that’s where the social tensions lie.
You also see Xtians attacking both mosques and synagogues.
Oh now this is rich.
(1) There are plenty of Xtian fundies who desire to ban teaching evolution in science classes (where it belongs) in publicschools – despite numerous court rulings throughout the past century against them. Pretty rabid if you ask me.
(2) I know of no ‘atheists’ who desire to ban ‘creationism’ from schools. Only ‘atheists,’ knowledgeable Xtians, non-Xtians and others who see no place for teaching one religion’s creed in science classes in public schools established by the state. American non-establishment clause and all that.
(3) Intolerance of Gays in certain Xtian churches, I’ll say fundies, certainly runs right up to the legal line of what they can say in public in re gays without getting in deep legal doodoo. It’s a rich bit of hypocrisy to ignore the underlying violence of much of that rhetoric. But good old greeny, see no evil, hear no evil.
No should greeny get his panties all in a bunch with one of his patented misreadings, let me hasten to add that I don’t mean to imply Xtians alone or in general are a source of anti-gay violence. Fundies, however, certainly are a deep well.
No, Islam was launched by the word, then conquest helped spread it. The entire area fell to the Muslims rather easily, in no small part due to the bloodthirsty repression by the Byzantines who were quite intolerant of anyone who didn’t follow the Imperial creed. Indeed, historical accounts indicate that the Xtians of Egypt invited the newcomers, the Muslims in because they were so heartily sick of “Roman” (Byzantine) repression – including doing nasty things to the ‘heretics’ – that is the local Xtians – whose creed just didn’t quite match the imperial one.
They, and their confreres in the ‘Holy Land’ remained in the majority for the next 600 years or so.
The Crusades in all their savagery and bloodthirstiness all around are widely seen as having been a tipping point in conversions.
Psst, greeny, look up incredulous.
That aside, they clearly were in regards to tolerating other creeds. More peaceable in general, well I wouldn’t claim that any human state has ever truly been “more peaceable” on an average basis. But more tolerant of other creeds and beliefs, yes. In comparison with contemporary standards. Other religions co-existed in the Islamic world with Islam, sometimes uneasily but with considerably less-bloodshed. Zoarastrians, Jews, Xtians of all stripes and flavors, etc. One doesn’t find much history of that in Europe until the last century or two. I do recall that Tamerlane and I have tried to school you on this topic before. You prefer your churchy fantasy. As you like.
Now, gobear slightly overstates things: Muslim states certainly didn’t lack the habit of executing (Muslim) heretics, but it would appear from the historical record that they tended to confine themselves to the religiously appropriate chopping off of heads. And seem to have been marginally more tolerant of alternate readings of the Quran to the point where Sunnis and Shiites have coexisted under one ruler. Just to use an example. The history is not lacking in blood, but nothing quite as savage on the scale of the European wars of religion.
Again, not peaceful paradise, but in comparison with contemporary Europe, rather more tolerant.
Islam is on trial? As a whole it is unhealthy?
Whatever greeny.
I don’t see atrocities being ignored. Look at the sourcing of the motherfucking report. Saudi paper you drooling moron.
Fucking blathering on ignorance.
Oh yes, Xtianity has evolved. Cough cough. Constantly questioned and reexamined.
(cough, whitewash, cough)
Greeny, you read not Arabic, you know little of Islamic history nor of Islam. Why not keep you trap shut in regards to what is happening in the religion.
Grienspace, you are exhibitng your ignorance again.
Christians live in secular, modern societies that no longer permit burning at the stake. As for persecution, fundamentalist christians have exerted large amounts of money and time in keeping gay folk second class citizens. They try to ban books and abortion rights.
For one thing, there are a helluva lot more Muslims than there christians in India, and a lot more animosity. But Christians have beenattacked by fundie Hindus. The BJP is going after India’s Christians, too.
Nlo, but fundamentalist Jewish settlers are obstacles to peace in Israel.
Dude, you’re Canadian. In the States. the Constitution forbids teaching religion in public schools. “Creation science” is nothing more than christian myth that completely ignores science. Go to Talkorigns.org and learn.
Only because we live in a secular nation. Too many churches teach the damnation of gays.
Cite? The Qu’ran says there shall be no compulsion of religion. Islam historically tolerated Jews and Christians to live peacefully within Muslim territories. Muslims did not burn heretics. Can Crhistians say the same? you really need to read some good books on Muslim history because you do not know what you are talking about.
Again, you’re so full of crap you squeak. Islam is not on trial, you moron. Islam teaches peace and submission to God. Fundamentalists are perverting the teachings to suit their own agendas, just as Christian fundies in the West twist the teachings of Jesus to suit their one petty bigotry. They’re the ones on trial, not the teachings of Islam.
Please provide a cite to back up the limited burning allegation. Even Gobear backed down on that charge of burnings. With regard to present day killing of witches, you can provide a cite for that as well. I certainly deserve to have my ignorance corrected so that I don’t spread misinformation :rolleyes:
It might do you well Collounsbury to qualify a change in a quote of mine that you deliberately inserted in order to provide a counter argument. I never specified Guujjurat. As mentioned before many times, please avoid the strawman arguments.
I’m not well learned on this, but I gather that Christian missionaries feel a lot safer in India than most Islamic countries.
As your response is to my claims regarding the major religions of today, I have not read or heard of this in the last 20 years anyway. jCare to provide a cite?
You are responding to my present day claims, so your assertions going back a century are irrelevant as regards a rebuttal. Please provide a cite wihich rebuts my claim that Christians have tried to ban the teaching of evolution in the present day. And lets try to limit that to the last twenty years.
Hmm, I can’t respond, because you are contradicting yourself
Intolerance towards gays by Christianity in general in America does not prevent numerous people from coming out of the closet. I don’t think that happens in jSaudi Arabia or numerous other countries, being that certain death would be the result.
Well even among the Fundamentalists, certainly the biggest obstacle to gay rights I don’t find physical violence. I don’t hear about Fatwas against gays. Gay bashing has generally been done by angry young men regardless of religious orientation.
It seems to me that modern Europe is about as tolerant as you can get. This is where many political refugees flee to.
Sure, but are they questioning the ongoing atrocities of gay executions and severing of right hands. Gee everyone is excited about this latest report and we now have a blanket statement about how Saudis don’t ignore atrocities. I can understand your benevolent view on the history of tolerance in Islam.
A. I didn’t back down on anything. Christian Europe did burn witches. That they do not do so today does not negate that legacy.
B. Witches are routinely burned in southern Africa today, although this stems from traditional tribal punishments for sorcery and has no relation to the witch trials of Europe. If you would like an example of Christian persecution of another religion, may I refer you to the nation that gave us Martin Luther, Johann Sebastian Bach, and Adolf Hitler? Good Christian Germans slaughtered millions of men, women, and children for being born Jewish.
Did you even bother to read the three diifferent incidences of Hindu persecution of Christians I posted?
How about Korean Christians vandalizing Buddhist temples? I lived in Korea and I can personally testify to the consistent attacks by Christians against Buddhists in the past decade.
Islam need not be intolerant and hateful any more than Christianity does. The Prophet taught respect for women, tolerance for Jews and Christians, and submission to God. Unfortunately, the Saudi mullahs have turned their religion into a harsh straitjacket of intolerance. Islam itself is not the problem; harsh interpretations of the Qu’ran that violate the fiqh are. These false teachers are munafiq and will receive their punishment at the Day of Judgement (if you believe in that sort of thing.)
Of course, I am still sore that Islam condemns homosexuals to hell, but what are ya gonna do? I have the same problem with the Southern Baptists.
Grienspace, I’m no fan of Islam , but at least I’ve bothered to do my homework. Here’s a reading list for you:
Karen Armstrong, Islam: A Short History
Karen Armstrong, A History of God
Thomas Cleary (tr.), The Essential Koran
Paul Findley Silent No More : Confronting America’s False Images of Islam
Go to your local library, borrow a couple of books on Islam, read them, and then come back when you aren’t just airing prejudices.
Gobear has nicely done so already, one can find similar materials in re Xtian West Africa.
Like I said, poverty and illiteracy do wonderful things for bringing out the worst in people.
It might do you well Collounsbury to qualify a change in a quote of mine that you deliberately inserted in order to provide a counter argument. I never specified Guujjurat. As mentioned before many times, please avoid the strawman arguments.
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Greeny old dear, I specified Gujjurat as I was being helpful, making direct reference to what gobear was refering to. That is the state where the latest round of violence has occured. Hardly a strawman argument, I was (incorrectly) assuming you might have an inkling as to the reference gobear was making.
As his refs kindly point out, there is Hindu on Xtian violence in India, it’s simply there are very few Xtians in India, and they tend to be concentrated in a few coastal communities.
Proslytizing is illegal in most Arab Muslim countries, period. If you go and engage in illegal activity, you’ll have problems.
In that Mosques and Synagogues have been attacked in the US, Europe and I would suspect Canada? You honestly want a cite about that?
Greeny, your statement here makes no sense. If you’re questioning that Fundies have tried to get evolution out of public schools, just search our fucking archives for that, or go to Talk.origins.
Bloody fucking ostrich with his fucking pin head in the sand.
Contradicting myself? In no way at all. My point was I know of no one who wants to ban teaching about creationism as a matter of religion (comp religions, that sort of thing), only those who don’t want an article of one faith taught in science classes. Now if one is unable to distinguish between these points, one is far stupider than even I had thought.
You don’t think… Yes, how oddly convincing that statement is.
America has legal protections, Saudi Arabia does not. Nonetheless gay bashing occurs, and its connection with certain fundy strains of Xtianity in America is clear.
I might add social standards are rather different. There is, in Arab society, surprising tolerance for homosexual behaviour in certain contexts, more than what press reports might suggest.
At the same time, there is a backlash among the religious as homosexuality is seen as a “Western” sin. Politics and religion mixing.
For all that, it’s not Xtianity which has been the driver, it has been secularization which has been the driver, IMO, for gay rights.
Well, as fatwas are an Islamic convention one wouldn’t expect to hear them from Baptists. However, unless one is irretrievably ignorant, a drooling moron or just can’t admit the truth, a brief google search will turn up plenty of fundy preaching against gays. I won’t even bother with cites.
My apologies, what I meant was contemporary to the compared events, contemporaneous would have been clearer.
I did not intend my comment as a blanket statement, just to clarify.
My view on the history of Islam and its relative tolerance is informed no small amount of learning on the issue.
Yours appears to be largely ignorance and empty prejudice, unfortunately unalleviated by the last year’s worth of threads
Of course, it’s idiotic. Par for the course, but what can we say?
Does your keyboard give you a little shock if you accidentally type out the word “Christ”?
By the way: your tone is consistenly so nasty, that I’m convinced anything you say is probably wrong. It’s impossible to read your arguments through your seething hate. If you wish your words to be considered seriously, you might work on your style.
But don’t bother on my account; I have skipped most of your posts for quite a while. They’re uniformly very unpleasant reading.