You are making it more and more clear here that you are one of those kneejerk bigoted ‘superliberals’ who, probably out of some sense of guilt and self-hatred, insist that ‘we mustn’t make judgements’ and ‘their culture is just as valid as ours and we are obliged to “respect” their values’.
Even if they involve subjugation and suppression of women, restriction of basic human rights, etc.
I must respectfully differ.
As an aside, I think it is a bit disingenuous to claim that fundementalism is ‘only a small fraction’ of Islam. Afghanistan, Iran: are those ‘free societies’?
No Muslim is good enough for you, in your own words. Even the moderates, according to you (with absolutely no factual basis) aren’t doing enough to fight fundamentalism.
That’s as bigoted as it gets. Mass judgements based on superficial characteristics with not a shred of factual evidence. Have you considered that maybe if you praised, encouraged, and befriended moderate Islam and moderate Muslims, you might be helping to bridge divides and encourage peaceful behavior? Instead, you’re spreading fact-free hatred and bigotry and helping fundamentalist warmongers who long for exactly what you’re spreading – hatred between all Muslims and non-Muslims.
This is not worth my time. There are thousands upon thousands of quotes and documented efforts from moderate Muslims in fighting extremism and fundamentalism. They are easily found for anyone actually interested in looking. It appears you’re not interested in anything that’s not confirming your bigotry.
You’re helping fundamentalist murderers in your rhetoric, and its despicable.
Good. Give us a few links to some of the better ones. They don’t seem to surface in the general news media, but I suppose they wouldn’t: moderate views are not newsworthy.
No, I don’t believe you’re actually interested in this. I think you’re a liar and I’m not going to waste my time with liars. If you’re truly interested, you could take five minutes and easily find a multitude yourself.
And I think you are trapped in your own preconceptions.
I am not going to apologize for my basic moral position.
I want to live in a world where human rights (especially those of women, so often disadvantaged) are respected. Where intellectual honesty and scientific method take precedence over authority and dogma. Where we should outgrow tribal customs and old texts written centuries ago.
Views like yours are the worst enemies of human progress. I fear for the future.
In the early/mid 20th century christian societies were full of dictatorships. Latin America was pretty much all dictatorships. The nazis, the USSR, Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy, etc were all dictatorships. The KKK in the US was a paramilitary christian fascist organization. Now many of these christian nations are liberal democracies.
Nobody is saying things can’t change. Hopefully the muslim world sees advances in human rights and democracy. The majority of citizens in Iran don’t even consider themselves muslim anymore since they’ve seen how much damage Islamic extremism has done to their lives.
But independent research paints a different reality. A 2020 anonymous survey by the Gamaan Institute of over 50,000 Iranians found:
Yes, a voice of reason. There seems to be a wistful hope in some circles that a liberal democracy is somehow the ‘natural’ or ‘inevitable’ form of government (what Bush perhaps imagined would happen in Iraq, for example: “mission accomplished”!.)
Insufficient historical perspective. The idea has only been around for a couple of hundred years, and seems to depend critically on a lot of factors: an influencial merchant and technical class, for example.
Yeah, except AFAIK there exists no sovereign state or officially instituted political subdivision where these things are done in the name of Christianity. We’ve had isolated groups of wackos like the Westboro Baptist Church and the People’s Temple, but nowhere is this kind of violence being perpetrated, by the state, in the name of Christianity or any other religion that I’m aware of.
That’s not to say I don’t think the influence of religion on American politics is a problem, but it’s nowhere near what we see in this article.
In this context bothsidesism is preposterous. There is no comparison.
Not recently, of course, but for many centuries in Europe the official underpinnings were supposedly Christian. Though probably a justification for political reasons….
You’ve missed just about every single criticism written, largely thoughtfully, against your words, in this thread. No one cares that you oppose fundamentalism. No one cares that you are in favor of science and decency. No one cares that you want to live in a free and peaceful society. No one is criticizing you for any of that.
The criticism is because you’re lumping in millions upon millions of decent people who also want all those same things you want, with the worst of the worst in the world. And in that, you’re doing the exact same thing fundamentalists are doing, and want you to do – dividing and spreading hatred. You’re an ally of the fundamentalists, until you realize what you’re doing and stop doing what they want you to do.
For the last time: I am NOT attacking Muslim people. I am saying that the Islam ideology is something I don’t like, because it conflicts with my moral and intellectual hopes for the human race.
I think this is a “people in class houses shouldn’t throw stones” situation. We are a couple of Epstein files distractions away from an executive order bringing back whipping for adultery and birth.control use*.
‘*’ - for female residents of large Democratic majority cities with black mayors only, obviously. GOP politicians will be free to drunkenly commit adultery in theaters as they see fit.
Yet as an American living under this sick administration, and many hundreds of years of wrongdoing by both sides, I don’t claim moral high ground either.
I voted for Obama twice and Biden once and they both ordered the deaths of thousands of innocent people. It’s part of the job description.
And at least the people in the OP were punished and released.
That’s a fair point. It’s not something I have published anything about. And of course slavery and exploitation was rampant in the time.
On the other hand, I’m not a spokesperson for any religion or movement, so why would I? I hope my general stance as a scientific humanist is evident in most of what I post?