Israel shocked at Swedish tabloid's freedom of speech

[Olentzero]

@Rune

Actually I’d say it is probably impossible to disprove. A very common practise of conspiracy theorists is to enlarge the circle of the conspiracy to include anyone reacting negatively to the conspiracy or who try to disprove it.

True enough, but we haven’t reached that particular point yet in this issue. You’re assuming that Boström will react this way and using that as a justification for not taking any steps to prove him wrong.

Case in point: The NIST report is widely seen as a conspiracy cover up by 9/11 truthers.

And yet the NIST report was nonetheless issued, regardless of how the truthers reacted to it. The people who wrote that report clearly did not take the reaction of some people into serious consideration and decide to withhold the report for fear these people would reject it. No reason Israel shouldn’t be able to do the same.

[Marley23]

@bengangmo

And yes, people have theorised anti semite conspiracy - that’s how this blood libel made its way into the conversation.

Nobody has suggested a conspiracy. Saying the accusations are anti-Semitic, or that they have roots in historical anti-Semitism, is not the same as saying the accusations are being made by an anti-Semitic conspiracy. This whole thing comes from a single column by a Swedish journalist. There’s no need for a conspiracy.

I don’t want to argue against the need for evidence, but Rune is right that it is difficult to overcome people’s paranoia or prejudice with facts. This is true of the Kennedy assassinations, the moon landing, September 11th, the Holocaust, Barack Obama’s birth certificate and more. No matter how overwhelming the evidence, people who don’t believe the conclusion will say the same thing: “we would be satisfied if they released one more piece of evidence, but since they can’t or won’t, they must be hiding something.” It’s disingenous and uses niggling doubts as a reason to dismiss a record that doesn’t fit one’s view of reality.

It’s far down on the list of bad Israeli policies, but the Israeli military should stop autopsying people it shoots to death. That’s just stupid and unnecessary, and obviously it has fed into these rumors. That said, the notion that the army and medical industry are killing Palestinians for their organs is no more plausible than the idea that Jews are vampires or werewolves. Even if it’s possible to prove this didn’t happen to Bilal Ghanan, it wouldn’t kill the stories. By now this is one of those things everybody knows happens because it happened to somebody their cousin’s brother’s friend used to know.

[Mikkel]

@Marley23

It’s far down on the list of bad Israeli policies, but the Israeli military should stop autopsying people it shoots to death. That’s just stupid and unnecessary, and obviously it has fed into these rumors. That said, the notion that the army and medical industry are killing Palestinians for their organs is no more plausible than the idea that Jews are vampires or werewolves.

Right, when I read things like those, I wonder how IDF can be “the most respected public body in Israel”. It speak ill of the rest of public bodies in Israel. If it is true of course, I think I would like to be convinced it’s lies.

I think that an autopsy is the most likely scenario for the photo of Bilal Ghanan after what Jackmannii had to say, but why? If you shoot a man from ambush you don’t need to dissect him afterwards to learn the cause of death. Training for medical students? I know that the Danish medical schools always need more cadavers. Development of new ammunition? Usually you would test it on pigs but if you are to shoot a man anyway…

[Malthus]

@Mikkel

Right, when I read things like those, I wonder how IDF can be “the most respected public body in Israel”. It speak ill of the rest of public bodies in Israel. If it is true of course, I think I would like to be convinced it’s lies.

I think that an autopsy is the most likely scenario for the photo of Bilal Ghanan after what Jackmannii had to say, but why? If you shoot a man from ambush you don’t need to dissect him afterwards to learn the cause of death. Training for medical students? I know that the Danish medical schools always need more cadavers. Development of new ammunition? Usually you would test it on pigs but if you are to shoot a man anyway…

One possibility not involving pig-testing is that the military has in place autopsy procedures as a form of internal fact control.

A soldier claims some dude was shot to death attacking him from ambush. One could either (a) take his word for it or (b) conduct some sort of investigation, part of which would be to determine how in fact the subject died. An autopsy reveals that the guy was beaten and burned with curling irons before being shot at point-blank range. Court-martial follows (one may hope).

Naturally the Israeli authorities are buggered either way. If they conduct autopsies they are ghoulishly sealing organs; if they do not, they are failing to investigate deaths of Palistinians, probably because their troops are routinely torturing prisoners to death.

Edit: personally I regard Israeli peace activists and protest groups as a healthy sign concerning Israeli society. I’d be much more concerned if they didn’t exist.

[Malthus]

[quote=“Olentzero, post:218, topic:507198”]

Outside of jurisprudence, where laying the burden of proof on the accuser (when used correctly) is a powerful tool for protecting the innocent from miscarriages of justice - not necessarily. This is the territory of the logical fallacy of the burden of proof, which says that the accusing side may be the wrong side to bear the burden in a given argument.

In this case, the logically more incredible argument is that the article is just another brick in the vast wall of a European anti-Semitic conspiracy. Organ harvesting is nowhere near as logically incredible, as it has already been established that it’s happened elsewhere with no connection to Judaism whatsoever. Therefore the burden of proof now lies with the Israeli side of the argument - they need to show either that[ul][li]photos like the one Boström supplied are either fake or misrepresented (i.e. that the corpse in question is not Bilal Ghanan), or[/li][li]that the incisions are in fact only unorthodox methods of obduction and that the organs have not been removed.[/ul]Boström and/or the Palestinians have a much harder task in proving their case - not because it can’t be proven, but because the time, effort, and resources required to do so are beyond their means. To point at this and say “They can’t prove it so it must be false” is intellectually lazy. Disproving it, on the other hand, should be a cakewalk for Israel - that is, if they chose to do so rather than striking up the usual howling chorus of “Anti-Semitism!” Unless, of course, it actually is occurring. But they’ve provided no evidence against this and they have the means to do so. They’re holding 47 cards while Boström’s got a busted low-card flush, but they claim they don’t have four aces. How can they conclusively prove it if they won’t show their hand?[/li][/QUOTE]

How is it a fallacy to state that the person asserting something rather extraordinary is true - be it that your soldiers are ghouls, or you like to fuck pigs - has the “burden” of advancing some proof for it?

I have no proof that you like to fuck pigs. In fact, I don’t know you at all. I can’t prove it, but that doen’t mean it’s false. Only you have the means to prove you don’t, in fact, fuck pigs. I’m in no position to prove that you do, so it is “unfair” and a “intellectually lazy falacy” to require that I provide such proof.

So why not publish an article about your alleged pig-fuckery? I won’t assert it as a fact, just as a theory that requires further investigation. I’ll mention in passing that Swedes are well known to be horny, and Sweden has no law against beastiality: these are highly suggestive facts that tend to support the notion that the “pig-fucking theory”, as I call it, has some validity and is worth investigating in full … of course any angry protest against that is only to be expected, as it is well known that pig-fuckers don’t like their practices exposed …

[Olentzero]

@Malthus

I have no proof that you like to fuck pigs. In fact, I don’t know you at all. I can’t prove it, but that doen’t mean it’s false. Only you have the means to prove you don’t, in fact, fuck pigs. I’m in no position to prove that you do, so it is “unfair” and a “intellectually lazy falacy” to require that I provide such proof.

Boström has no proof that Israel harvests organs from Palestinians. He can’t prove it, but that doesn’t mean it’s false. Only Israel has the means to prove they don’t, in fact, harvest organs from Palestinians. Boström is in no position to prove that Israel does, so it is “unfair” and a “intellectually lazy fallacy” to require that Boström provide such proof.

Maybe I’m whooshed here and the at the end is supposed to indicate sarcasm throughout your post, but you’ve pretty much made my argument here.

[Malthus]

@Olentzero

Boström has no proof that Israel harvests organs from Palestinians. He can’t prove it, but that doesn’t mean it’s false. Only Israel has the means to prove they don’t, in fact, harvest organs from Palestinians. Boström is in no position to prove that Israel does, so it is “unfair” and a “intellectually lazy fallacy” to require that Boström provide such proof.

Maybe I’m whooshed here and the at the end is supposed to indicate sarcasm throughout your post, but you’ve pretty much made my argument here.

I’m kinda scratching my head here.

You accept the analogy I made and think it is quite fair? In short, you are of the opinion that a “Olentzero fucks pigs” article as I described it would be reasonable and supportable journalism, and not merely a libelous smear?

[carnivorousplant]

@Olentzero

Maybe I’m whooshed here and the at the end is supposed to indicate sarcasm throughout your post, but you’ve pretty much made my argument here.

So, how are the pigs?

[Jackmannii]

I have it on good authority from people who despise Olentzero that he was seen with a pulled pork sandwich, and was playing with his food in a suggestive manner, as this photo shows. And unnamed observers at the county fair saw him scratching a pig behind the ears. Therefore the unsavory bestiality allegations must be viewed in a serious light, and only Olentzero can disprove them.

[carnivorousplant]

@Jackmannii

as this photo shows.

I don’t believe I’ve ever seen toe nail fungus on finger nails.

[Henrichek]

@Jackmannii

I have it on good authority from people who despise Olentzero that he was seen with a pulled pork sandwich, and was playing with his food in a suggestive manner, as this photo shows. And unnamed observers at the county fair saw him scratching a pig behind the ears. Therefore the unsavory bestiality allegations must be viewed in a serious light, and only Olentzero can disprove them.

We could add the pig farmers having their pigs stolen by his goons, later returned with sore hind parts, a documented history of pig fetishism and links to a pig prostitution ring in America.

At some point it must be acceptable to start asking questions?

Sorry Olentzero, I’m extrapolating their hypothetical

[Punoqllads]

I think that there is not enough information on Olentzero’s behavior at the present time. A neutral party (perhaps sponsored by the UN) should be allowed to do a more thorough investigation.

[Jackmannii]

Rather than having the U.N. investigate the allegations against Olentzero, we need to involve a truly neutral third party.

I’m sure PETA would be happy to oblige.

[Mikkel]

@Jackmannii

Rather than having the U.N. investigate the allegations against Olentzero, we need to involve a truly neutral third party.

I’m sure PETA would be happy to oblige.

Hey now, you should know that we Scandinavians have suffered under this swine libel for centuries, this is just a part of the ongoing smear campaign!

[Henrichek]

I ask again, how close must the dots be for a journalist to legitimately connect them and raise alarms of possible shady business?

Don’t tell me there must first be at least two dots, or something equally useless :). Try to disregard your opinions for this article and attempt a general answer.

[carnivorousplant]

@Henrichek

Sorry Olentzero, I’m extrapolating their hypothetical

You can be arrested for that in some Southern states.

[Henrichek]

@carnivorousplant

You can be arrested for that in some Southern states.

I have no plans to visit any of them again.

[Rune]

@Henrichek

I ask again, how close must the dots be for a journalist to legitimately connect them and raise alarms of possible shady business?

Don’t tell me there must first be at least two dots, or something equally useless :). Try to disregard your opinions for this article and attempt a general answer.

It depends on the circumstance, but generally I think there must be some core to the story that can be verified out and fact checked by other non-involved parts. Rumors and anonymous “witnesses” don’t cut it. Especially when history will tell you this is a region where absurd rumors are very common. And when you base part of your story on a known entity – in this case Hamas – you should be aware of its general neutrality and trustworthiness.
btw. you fools are just sore losers because we got all the hot pigs.

[Honesty]

@Malthus

How is this relevant? The Israelis are not asking for a conviction or for censorship.

It’s relevant because Israel is asking the Swedish government to involve themselves in Free Speech which goes against the spirit of their Constitution. Just because Israel hasn’t sat down and hammered out a Constitution for her People, does not mean that other countries should abandon theirs at Israel’s request.

Now, honestly? I think Israel has a lot of nerve; especially when the Israeli government is hinged to continuing welfare payments from the E.U Kitty Box which countries like Sweden contribute substantially. The Israeli government should be on their knees thanking Swedish taxpayers for graciously subsidizing their way of life and for directly involving themselves in cleaning up the Israeli mess in Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

Despite collateral damage inherent to cluster bombs, Israel blanketed villages in Lebanon and refused to help the government disable them. If a country could carry out such an inhumane order, what force is stopping them from experimenting on the Palestinians or harvesting their organs? The story is damning, even if its not true, because its utterly and disappointingly believable. Israel can shed all of these accusations by starting to treat every one of its citizens fairly and equitably.

• Honesty

[Henrichek]

@Rune

It depends on the circumstance, but generally I think there must be some core to the story that can be verified out and fact checked by other non-involved parts. Rumors and anonymous “witnesses” don’t cut it. Especially when history will tell you this is a region where absurd rumors are very common. And when you base part of your story on a known entity – in this case Hamas – you should be aware of its general neutrality and trustworthiness.
btw. you fools are just sore losers because we got all the hot pigs.

I agree that it depends. At the same time I think it is not always obvious, which is one argument why the government shouldn’t judge or condemn (that would require them to make a value judgment as you did).

Our law is set up to rather acquit than convict if there is doubt whether or not a publication is hate speech.