Israel shocked at Swedish tabloid's freedom of speech

[carnivorousplant]

@Honesty

If a country could carry out such an inhumane order, what force is stopping them from experimenting on the Palestinians or harvesting their organs? The story is damning, even if its not true

Damn your impeccable logic.

[Malthus]

@carnivorousplant

Damn your impeccable logic.

Heh, it’s true: the worse the smear, the more it must be deserved.

Damn, but that Olentzero must be one nasty piece of work; people are claiming he fucks pigs.

[carnivorousplant]

@Malthus

Damn, but that Olentzero must be one nasty piece of work; people are claiming he fucks pigs.

Claiming? Enough folks are saying it that it seems certain.

[Henrichek]

@Malthus

Heh, it’s true: the worse the smear, the more it must be deserved.

Damn, but that Olentzero must be one nasty piece of work; people are claiming he fucks pigs.

I think Honesty meant that previous acts, unrelated to the article, help make the allegations of the article more plausible.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

I don’t see how you can all be getting on him for pig-fucking. When in Rome, etc.

[carnivorousplant]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I don’t see how you can all be getting on him for pig-fucking. When in Rome, etc.

Good gad, what have I started?

[Olentzero]

@Malthus

You accept the analogy I made and think it is quite fair? In short, you are of the opinion that a “Olentzero fucks pigs” article as I described it would be reasonable and supportable journalism, and not merely a libelous smear?

No. The point was about the burden of proof and where it lies, not about what constitutes supportable journalism and what doesn’t.

[Alessan]

Bearing the burden of truth is the *definition *of supportable journalism.

[amanset]

I find it amusing that members of the Israeli government seem to think that Sweden and the Swedish government is so Anti-Semitic. So much so as to bring up what happened in World War 2.

I find it amusing as in 1997 the Swedish government commissioned an 116 page book called “Om detta må vi berätta” (translated to “Tell Ye Your Children”) that details what happened in the Holocaust. It was distributed (I believe at no cost) to anyone that wanted it. Any family with a teenage child was sent a form that they just had to send back to receive a copy. My girlfriend has a copy. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

As this Jewish site notes:

Sweden confronting its role in the Nazi war machine

In fact, the Swedish government sent out letters to 713,000 households with teenage children offering the Holocaust history book. Those interested could send back an enclosed card, and the book, which is available in several languages, would be mailed out at no charge.

“The government hoped for 20,000 to 30,000 responses in the first six months,” Levine said. “They got 300,000 requests in two weeks.”

Some 800,000 copies of the Swedish edition have been published, and the book is now the “most widely distributed book in Swedish history, after the Bible,” Levine said.

You can read an English translation here:

http://www.levandehistoria.se/files/engelska.pdf

Unfortunately the English translation omits the section specific to Sweden which can be seen in the original Swedish version which can be read here:

http://www.levandehistoria.se/files/svenska.pdf

The Sweden-specific sections add an extra 25 pages to the book.

The English edition also has a section at the back where various Swedish politicians have added their thoughts. One of these politicians is Carl Bildt, the current Foreign Minister that has come in for criticism over this recent “scandal”. He says:

I have stood in silence before the crematoria
of the Nazi extermination camps
and before the open mass graves after
the cruel murders committed in the war
in Bosnia. And I have read the chilling
descriptions of those who managed to
survive the mass purges of the Stalin era.
It could happen again. Perhaps not
exactly a new Hitler or Stalin, but fear of
the unknown could lead to intolerance, hate could spread or be
whipped up, and the ground could once again be laid for murder.
Fear of those who look different, or who think differently. Fear of
people who have a different faith. Or of Jews, or whites or black
people. Of people whose only ”fault” is that they are different
from their murderers.
This is why it is so important for us to learn from history. It
must never be forgotten. And we should be able to draw conclusions
from it. The very things that divide us as individuals and
peoples and cultures are often the things that bring richness and
dynamism to our development. There should be ever closer cooperation
between individuals and nations and states to build a
firebreak to prevent the forces of barbarism from perpetrating
new murders.

I am sure that those in Israel that are currently condemning Anti-Semitic Sweden in pubic, via statements or in their press, especially those that feel the need to bring up World War 2 and Sweden’s actions during it, have also mentioned this book, how it was so widely distributed and Government commissioned.

[Olentzero]

@Alessan

Bearing the burden of truth is the *definition *of supportable journalism.

Indeed. Even if that truth is highly unpleasant and potentially embarrassing to an entire nation’s army and medical establishment.

[Olentzero]

Missed the edit window…

We are, however, talking about the burden of proof, not the burden of truth. Do please try to keep up.

[amanset]

An additional story comes a bit closer to home. I took a Photoshop and an Illustrator course at Åsö Vuxengymnasium a couple of years back. The teacher didn’t turn up for the last two lessons of the Illustrator course. We were all rather annoyed.

Turns out the guy was a Holocaust Denier and went to a Holocaust Denial conference in Iran to do a presentation:

The Local - Sweden's news in English

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Swedish_teacher_suspended_over_atte_12142006.html

Let’s just say this was a very hot topic in Stockholm at the time. There was widespread condemnation in the press. I believe he was suspended and then an agreement was made with the union as he hadn’t specifically broken the rules of his contract but it was clear he could no longer work as a teacher.

Of course if Sweden and Swedes were so Anti-Semitic it’d be easy to find mainstream support for him. Except there isn’t any.

And yes, honest to God I was taught by the guy. I went back to the UK for Christmas and came back to the shitstorm in the press. It was bizarre to say the least.

[Alessan]

@Olentzero

Missed the edit window…

We are, however, talking about the burden of proof, not the burden of truth. Do please try to keep up.

Hey, I’m not working now. No-one’s paying me to proofread.

**Amanset **- no-one here in this thread is accusing the Swedes of anti-semitism. At most, the accusation is that in this case, you are unwilling to confront anti-semitism.

Incidentally, to those accusing Israel of reacting vehemently, here’s a fun fact: the Hebrew language has no word for “subtle”. Seriously.

[amanset]

@Alessan

**Amanset **- no-one here in this thread is accusing the Swedes of anti-semitism. At most, the accusation is that in this case, you are unwilling to confront anti-semitism.

As I said:

I find it amusing that members of the Israeli government seem to think that Sweden and the Swedish government is so Anti-Semitic.

[Mikkel]

@Alessan

Incidentally, to those accusing Israel of reacting vehemently, here’s a fun fact: the Hebrew language has no word for “subtle”. Seriously.

Sorry for the off-topic post but really? Not even words to the same effect like softly, silent, stealthy, quiet?
That could explain a lot :D. Does Arabic suffer from the same defect?

[Alessan]

@Mikkel

Sorry for the off-topic post but really? Not even words to the same effect like softly, silent, stealthy, quiet?
That could explain a lot :D. Does Arabic suffer from the same defect?

No, of course all those words can be translated - just not the word “subtle”, which translators always seem to have a problem with. The best most can do is the Hebrew words for “delicate” or “refined”.

Anyway, what I was trying (subtly) to imply is that Israelis have a more… Mediterranean way of expressing themselves, which differs somewhat from the Nordic approach. As we’ve seen lately.

[Olentzero]

Not according to my Oxford English-Arabic dictionary. The diacriticals are a little hard to read but there are three words for ‘subtle’ with the implied meaning of ‘perceptive’: faTin, Haadhiq, and dhuudahaa’. Incidentally, Yiddish has subtil and farshpitst so it’s not like Jews are completely unaware of the concept.

[Alessan]

I was talking about Hebrew. My Arabic isn’t nearly good enough to answer that question.

[Olentzero]

I was responding to Mikkel. You just got in first.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

My favorite of the 99 names of God is “The Subtle One.” I like that one a lot.

So yes, Arabic has such a word.