If you do some work at night, it isn’t unusual to have artificial light.
Neither is it unusual to point said light at the place where you are working.
A light on the grave will even explain why no one saw he took the pictures since he was standing in the shadows. If the incision is from a autopsy the explanation could be that nobody cared, there was no crime to hide :dubious:.
Watching the Israelis knee-jerk reaction is pretty sad and will probably bite them in the ass. Screaming “anti-Semite”, “blood-libel”, 'Sweden aided the Nazis" sounds like the lady doth protest too much. Same for the posters here.
But of course if you have no real argument it’s easy to pull the “anti-Semite” card.
Why not just address and refute the issues at hand?
Because Israel’s problem isn’t so much with the article itself - people will always say things like that - but rather with the public mindset that sees such beliefs as perfectly acceptable. That’s why we want the representatives of the Swedish public to reassure use that they *don’t *believe in such things.
Europeans used to openly believe many horrible things about Jews, and did many horrible things to them as a result. Israelis believe that this sickness has not been wiped out, but has merely gone into remission, and that it is slowly re-emerging in the form of anti-Israeli slander. Not that criticizing Israeli is inherently anti-semitic; it’s just that all too often, the anti-semitism inherent in European culture is often expressed as anti-Israeli criticism. When it does, as in the case at hand, it has to be stamped out immediately.
Calling for the investigation of a claim is nowhere near the same thing as advocating a pogrom or a Final Solution. While I agree that anti-Semitism exists, I completely disagree that it’s inherent in European culture, and this article is nothing close to anti-Semitic.
Israel is its own worst enemy. If Israel publically lampooned the story, and laughed at it, we’d laugh with it. But shrill childish footstamping demands of this kind, allied with Godwinisation of the debate just makes it look whiney. Israel cannot insist that people instantly condemn every dumbass thing said about it and threaten anyone who does not with the libel that they must support what was said. Doing so doesn’t win Israel friends or respect, it loses both. It doesn’t decrease the anti-semitism out there, it increases it. People resent attempts at emotional and moral blackmail, even when they agree with the emotional and moral standpoint being taken.
You’re not “stamping out immediately” you are alienating your friends.
If anti-Semitism is inherent in European culture, how is it then possible to have a European criticism of Israel that is not inherently anti-Semitic?
What? The belief that people sometimes do horrible things? Why is an accusation that people are breaking the law inherently representing a belief that a country is bad? You have no doubt seen the child-prositution / Blackwater thread, I don’t see anybody equating that with America as a whole or any Americans claiming that it is insulting of Americans.
What friends? Sweden’s our friend? I’d like to see some proof of that.
Personally I don’t think Europeans should be criticising anyone, but I suppose reasonable, intelligent, fact-based criticism would be acceptable. Not what we see here.
Except that the article attacks the IDF, the most respected public body in Israel, and not private Israelis.
I think this has morphed into a Great Debates style thread, so I’ve moved it over there.
Well, *now *the gravlax is going to hit the fan.
You must be kidding. The organ harvesting thing is just an updated version of the original blood libel.
I agree that it’s useless to demand a government apologize for something it did not say, and that the invoking of WWII was over the top. But I’m a little surprised that people are accusing Israel of “whining” and such. Do you people not understand that some people really believe this crap and that it’s been out there for centuries? That’s why the Israeli government is reacting, or overreacting, this way. It’s a ridiculous accusation, but it’s not JUST a ridiculous accusation, it’s one that feeds into longstanding crazy beliefs about Jews and about Israel. Maybe you can see why they don’t want that to spread unopposed.
An older thread about this, and a sequel thread. That second thread includes a link to a photo of a young child holding up a sign with a picture of a dead body, with the text “organ thieves.”
Speaking from personal experience - mostly limited to Sweden - I have never encountered any anti-semitic sentiments in people I know or have interacted with. I think that most people wouldn’t even know if a person is Jewish or not, unless they really try to stand out, and to put it bluntly, almost nobody would care.
The “almost” is because there are of course some neo-nazi scumbags, but they are exceedingly rare. In my city I have seen more anti-nazi marches than I have seen people who possibly have nazi leanings. Which is a bit hilarious, but their cause is good.
I can’t speak for the rest of Europe, and my experience’s reach is limited even in a Swedish scope, but I can’t help to feel that you (Jews) try to blow the issue up much larger than it actually is. To put it bluntly, most people couldn’t care less (me included) if you’re a Jew or a Finn, Irish or Dutch. There is a much larger sentiment against Muslims and darker people, that might be on the increase due to our large immigration. Still, the great majority is tolerant, but anti-semitism is still just a drop among all racism that exists, and is in no way special or worse.
In education, the Holocaust is unfailingly taught to every student, and there is no dispute regarding that part of history except in some tiny neo-nazi circles.
So, judging by my experience, I think it’s wrong to say that there is an inherent anti-semitism in our culture. Maybe it is different in continental Europe. I know you said European culture, which I can’t speak for as it is too broad.
Here is a cut from our FM’s blog, which I think was linked to from the ministry webpage (my translation). I think he makes it quite clear what the government’s opinion is. And I don’t see why you would think otherwise:
Well, it seems not to be mutual, but from our perspective you are our friends. Why do you think Europeans have no rights to criticize?
I think the fact that you make out everybody to be your enemies does a great disservice to your cause if you do want to keep or make new friends.
I’m still trying to imagine the consternation at Illicit Organ Procural headquarters when Bilal was brought in.
“You fools! We specified kidneys and a liver, and you shot him full of lead. Our well-heeled secret organ buyers don’t want bullet-riddled transplants! This is worse than the time we asked for a brain, and you brought us one from somebody you said was named Abbie Normal! You’re all on report!!!”
“Wub-wub-wub-wub-wub-wub-wub-wub-wub-wub! Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!”
You miss the point. No one is suggesting the story should not be opposed. What they are saying is that Israel shouldn’t commit moral blackmail in the way that it tends to do in such circumstances. It smacks of entitlement, special pleading and whineyness.
Jews may be entitled, they may have a case for special pleading, and they may be being wronged, but regardless all they are doing is making the position worse.
Personally if a person says they’ve been defamed in an article I’ll listen. But what if I say I think the defamation against them is “shocking and appalling” but that I won’t condemn the article on a point of principle about freedom of expression although the only thing that my government has been uniformly against is the sentiment behind such articles, and the person doesn’t think that’s enough and start accusing me of agreeing with the article? I’ll think they may have been defamed, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t carrying on like a jerk.
Even if Sweden isn’t your friend that would hardly be the point since many others are watching. And this sort of thing isn’t limited to this story. Every second criticism of what Israel, the nation, does provokes a tantrum about how it’s all motivated by anti-semitism or some other similar attempt to choke off any kind of discussion.
No its not. The stealing organs thing is a wide spread urban legend that has been applied to any number of groups from the Russian mafia to the Chinese government. It has nothing to do with religion, and bears only the slightest connection to blood libels.
Name another case where it’s been applied to an entire ethnic group instead of an organization.
The article was interesting and somewhat controversial, but the response to it is beyond retardation.
We have free press and Aftonbladet isn’t run by the government. The government should neither be condemning or defending the content, they should only (and ferociously) be defending the newspapers right to publish.
The highlight of the debacle was when Israels ambassador said that in the future, Israel would not give much weight to complains from Sweden regarding transgressions of human rights in Israel and Palestine. That has some serious comedic value considering that Israel has never, ever given a fuck about those complaints, and Sweden is possibly the most servile and cowardly state in the world when it comes to voicing them.
Two questions that have yet to be answered:
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Is all critisism of Israel by definition anti-semitic? If not, what sort of critisism or questioning is ok?
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IF it would turn out that the suspicions aired in the article are tru. That in fact Israeli military does harvest Palestinians for organs. Would it STILL be anti-semitic to claim that?
I think I’ll just wait for the Spielberg version. I know Israel win in that one.
The article is the worst kind of trash and I was all for condemning it until Israel got its knickers in a twist. I wrote a few posts about the article which I personally find to be much worse than the Muhammed cartoons, since it is dealing with accusations against real living people. But now I’m forced to defend the right of the newspaper to post trash and argue against the demands that the government should be forced to condemn and apologize. Being Danish during the Muhammed Cartoon bullshit, has made me something of a purist when it comes to the government being forced to say anything that in anyway could possible be construed as an apology.
As I understand it, there is a paragraph (§4) in the Swedish constitution that clearly forbids any government authority to act or comment on any publication even if it’s obvious that the publication has broken the law. What Israel is demanding, is that the Swedish government should break the constitution.
Pretty much all other Swedish newspapers have come down with a ton of bricks on Aftonbladet and a case has been brought against the newspaper in the courts (for inciting racial hatred).