Ok, so do you have a proposal for a better alternative? Or as you are not a military expert, can you find an article that has a better alternative for shutting down the rocket strikes when needed without collateral damage? We can debate how effective a given proposal would be, but I haven’t seen any realistic alternatives at all.
I’m kind of shocked that the IDF hasn’t figured this out yet. It seems so simple.
/sarcasm
I’ll note that my frustrations aren’t with this particular chapter of the conflict. It’s the behavior of both parties. While I might seem to bitch more about Israel’s behavior, that’s because I expect better. I fully acknowledge that Hamas has ill intentions in regards to Israel, but that’s not true of the majority of Palestinians. To those who say that the Palestinians are at fault as they are voting for Hamas (I personally find it questionable that Hamas has won said elections), I say Israel is at fault for voting for the Likud idiots. Again, if you want to say one side (Hamas) is a terrorist organization, I say fine. So why would I expect them to behave the same or better than the side which claims to have the high ground?
Basically, why do you keep electing the Netanyahu’s instead of people who share the opinions of someone like Assaf Harel (Deputy Mayor of Tel Aviv at the moment, but previously actor and talk show host)? People like him I applaud. People like Benji, I consider them your Trump. This is from four years ago, but would have been valid long before that and will remain so in the future.
Arguably the Iron Dome is THE state of the art system for doing exactly that - shooting enemy missiles out of the sky before they land on one’s territory. I’m sure they’d like a system even more robust, accurate, and capable but it doesn’t exist at this time.
Given how Israel spent decades hunting down Nazis (and are still at it) I’m pretty sure they’re doing similar work in regards to their other enemies. And, indeed, the blockade around Gaza is an example of that - and it’s so tight people complain that necessary food, medicine, and other aid can’t get through it.
So… yes, Israel is already doing that. It’s not enough, apparently, as rockets are still raining down on Israel.
I suspect that many Palestinians are either unaware that these launch sites are in their school, hospitals, mosques, and apartment blocks, and even if they are aware, I don’t think they have any say in it being done. I suspect that if they did object they’d suffer negative consequences.
I don’t think you really have a good and thorough grasp of the situation and encourage you to learn more about the details. On both sides.
I’m starting to develop a lot more sympathy for the Israelis the more you post.
Can you articulate any of these viable options?
I mean to a degree they are not still electing Netanyahu, he has lost four elections in a row. But due to the mechanisms of their constitution and Knesset, no other party has been able to form a new governing majority, so a new government cannot be established. He has been ruling as a caretaker Prime Minister since early 2019 and has failed to win a majority in four elections. Typically this is not an intended state of affairs by the design of their constitution, ordinarily if you lose an election the opposition forms a new governing coalition and the caretaker premiership is just about transitioning to the new government.
The point is: once you hide weapons in a school, it ceases to be a school.
I would like to thank @Martin_Hyde for what seems like a fairly balanced analysis. Of course, given the history not everyone will agree with everything.
The next question is what can be done to secure a degree of peace? An article today claims Biden does not have an ambassador, full diplomatic staffing, or the relationship that existed between Trump and Netanyahu. Not all of the people in charge might even want peace given political realities. Is it even possible there could be broad agreement on the next steps or is more conflict hard to avoid?
Does Israel really think “okay, the last 50,000 rockets didn’t get Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. to change its mind but these next 200 ones that we’re firing will"?
This sort of approach only results in an unwinnable war of slow attrition on both sides.
The IRA used to make courtesy calls first too.
Interesting argument: “It’s fair to criticize Israel FOR NOT KILLING ENOUGH PALESTINIANS and also it’s not a matter of who’s in the right or who’s in the wrong ALTHOUGH HAMAS ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG.”
Let’s be clear here: the Hamas attacks on civilians are horrific. But so are the Israeli attacks on Gaza, and whereas Hamas are a terrorist faction living in a chaotic territory, Israel are supposed to be a stable modern democratic state with a well-disciplined military. It’s not unreasonable to hold Israel to a higher standard.
It is not in any way excusing the Hamas attacks to observe the truism that desperate people will inevitably take desperate measures, even where those measures are ultimately counterproductive. But it does also follow that if you want those desperate measures to stop, the absolute worst thing to do is to make those people more desperate.
Sounds like what the US offered the Native Americans. And look how happy they’ve been about it.
I thought we’d decided that Hamas weren’t capable of “targetting” much of anything at all?
As per:
I mean, I doubt Hamas care if they blow up a school or indeed who they hit and kill with the rockets they indiscriminately fire into Israel, but that’s not the same thing.
From the Palestinian population standpoint, I’m guessing that when people with a shitload of weapons (and a certain amount of political authority) come in and say “We’re going to fire rockets from your school windows”, there’s not really a compelling counterargument one can offer at the time.
Why Biden rather than an intermediary like Egypt? Does Biden have the kind of connections necessary to negotiate a cease-fire?
Likud continues to receive the plurality of votes in most elections. Until that stops, I don’t see a peaceful future.
I think we’re probably pretty far away now from any serious peace. My strong belief is the two state solution is dead, and that policymakers in the West, Israeli civil society types and friends of Palestine need to recognize this and figure out now how to build a single state that has true equality for all citizens. In many ways this is a project that I think will take much longer than a two state solution would have taken, had the path to it not been abandoned many years ago.
Right now Israel proper is mostly populated by Arab towns and Jewish towns, and its cities have Jewish neighborhoods and Arab neighborhoods. There are mixed neighborhoods and towns, but they are exceptions that prove the rule. Disturbingly “mob violence” in the street between angry Jewish Israeli Citizens and angry Arab Israeli Citizens have ramped up to never before seen levels during this tension. That’s actually one of the more unfortunate things about it, as it suggests passions and emotions…are not moving in the right direction.
I don’t think formal agreements have a part to play at this stage, the framework for those to even be possible is simply lacking. I think Israel needs to stop doing things that antagonize Palestinians (settlement building, evictions from East Jerusalem, unnecessarily confrontational raids at Al Aqsa Mosque etc), and Palestine needs a genuine non-violent opposition movement to supplant and replace Hamas and other militant groups.
Even that sounds pie in the sky versus where we are today, the only steps I can see that would help begin the process would be a focus on improving Palestinian quality of life. Normalize to a degree their access to electricity, clean water, infrastructure. To build a viable one state Israel the Israeli government has to show that there can be a better life for the Palestinians in the unified state than in the ghettoized hell they are in now.
I don’t know if you have kids, but it’s the parents’ responsibility to keep their children safe. They absolutely should know if there are rocket launchers at school.
I would like nothing better. But every rocket is a giftwrapped batch of votes for Bibi, I’m afraid (just as every Israeli strike enhances support for Hamas).
That’s not at all what I said. Like, at all. What I said was that Israel’s effectiveness at killing Palestinians isn’t translating into effectively bringing about peace, so it’s not a good plan and they should probably try something else. Interesting how you read it, though…
That’s basically what I WAS saying.
The annual death rate from the never-ending rocket fire, in Israeli towns near Gaza, has greatly reduced in the past fifteen years, as documented in the Wikipedia article on Sderot . However, forgetting about this month, it remains an unpleasant place that you wouldn’t want to live in if you could afford someplace better.
So the answer is – you can arrange an early warning and shoot-down system that generally works, but you can’t arrange it so there won’t be overwhelming political pressure to stop the rockets from coming in the first place.
From the Gazan point of view, it is intolerable to not be allowed to return to their ancestor’s homes in pre-1967 Israel, just as it is intolerable to face an enemy that ignores most attacks – thus giving the impression of weakness – and then lashes out.
From my pro-Israel standpoint, I could say that the Israelis show enormous patience in the face of attack. Compared to the reaction of China to the relatively tiny bit of Islamic militancy in the Xinjiang Uygur region, the Israelis are indeed lambs. But part of the reason for what I call Israeli patience is that, compared to the Chinese, they have a smaller military and often don’t know what will work.
I realize that I am setting myself up for people to say that rocket attacks, outside the usual rocket alley, were used by the Israelis as a pretext for something planned for years. However, it is the nature of war that the pretext for an attack doesn’t tell you much about the dynamics.
I simply pointed out the facts on the ground and what the international community is saying. Sarcasm is not a response to this.
Huh? I’ve been quite willing to criticize Hamas. I’m on the side of trying to acknowledge wrongdoing, and figure out what should happen going forwards. I’m not interested in waving a tribal flag and deflecting all criticism of one side.
While “pie in the sky” reflects what I believe is a realistic assessment in the current state of affairs, I think you are neglecting a critically important factor: both sides (i.e., Israeli and Hamas leadership, at the very least) view the conflict as an existential war.
Given that the current hostilities are only the latest manifestation of a long war that runs hot and cold, why would any side make unilateral concessions to their enemy? That’s not how you win wars. You win by crushing your opponent’s will and capability to fight back. That is what Israel is trying to do. While this strategy is undoubtedly creating more enemies, an angry, revenge-minded Palestinian – or even lots of them - is a substantially lower level threat to the homeland than a rocket.
I believe it’s misleading to think peace is the intent or goal of either side; and it seems increasingly doubtful that trying to frame the conflict in terms of peaceful resolutions will yield any useful/practical perspective or course of action (though I certainly understand the hope and desire to keep trying). This war is about land and resources and who gets to exploit them. Both sides want it all and believe all will be lost if they don’t get it all. In the face of such perceived all-or-nothing stakes, I see no compelling motive on either side to convince them there is a better way.
It is always good to have sympathy for people living in a war zone.
I’d like to point out that however inevitable you think the current course of action of the IDF is: It is not working. (Presumably the goal is not to reduce Gaza/Israël to rubble and kill as many civilians as possible- that part is working swell)