Israel vs Gaza 2021… wtf?

Politics & Elections
301

This is a nonsense reply to the current situation. Using terms like “couldn’t you arrange” and “find some way” are fantasy questions to a real time event. If Israel could have prevented these attacks they would have. You don’t seem to grasp that these terrorist groups want to eliminate Israel and are using Palestinians as human shields.

If they used the money for building up Palestinian infrastructure and jobs instead of rockets and tunnel systems none of this would be happening. Everybody would be getting along.

Frankly, expecting Israel to create some new altruistic set of methods to protect themselves doesn’t address the problem that they are being attacked. Any nation on the receiving end of hundreds and thousands of missiles would consider that an act of war.

Israel has shown great restraint in their response to such attacks. There doesn’t seem to be any indication that hamas and hezbolah have any intentions of abating their war on Israel. And if this is the case then the only logical course of action is to go to war and establish control of the area until it can be rehabilitated into a productive state.

302

This can’t be good:

303

A long article, but a very interesting one.

304

This article is erudite and eloquently written.

And obviously Peter Beinart cares deeply about righting the historical wrongs against the Palestinian people.

There’s just one problem:

How does he advocate a right of return for Palestinians to Israel proper and hand-wave away all the ramifications for Israeli Jews?

That takes a particularly determined kind of moral obtuseness.

I think most honest observers understand that, under current conditions, if the Palestinians returned to Israel en masse, there would be a civil war that would make 1980s Lebanon look like Switzerland.

305

In South Africa, there were plenty of Whites who made the most extreme prophesies of doom if there should ever be a Black majority government. It didn’t happen.

Reconciliation and coexistence can be possible, despite past injustices, if the will is there.

Israel is a completely different situation, and made far more complicated by religious fanaticism, but a solution may still be possible.

Whether or not there is a solution, Israel does need to recognise the injustices done to the Palestinians, rather than continuing to push the myth that one side is 100% right and the other side is 100% wrong.

306

The African National Congress military wing was careful to attack infrastructure like power plants at night, and military facilities, One attack killed three civilians at a bar, and, ever after, the defenders of apartheid used this to characterize the ANC. That was a distortion.

They fought that way because their war aim wasn’t to drive out the whites – the ANC wanted whites to stay for fear of economic damage if they left. Instead the ANC was fighting for majority rule.

What about the Israelis? Are they trying to kill as many civilians as possible, as argued by The Librarian above? No. Compared to Syria, this is a small war with, at least on the Israeli side, limited aims. The Israelis, after having been fairly successful at suppressing infiltration raids from Gaza, are now trying to suppress rocket fire. It will take a few months to know if they did.

307

Didn’t know I was arguing that.

I was arguing that if you do the same thing over and over, it must be because you like the results.

  • No peace, ever.
  • daily casualties (very asymmetrical)
  • Palestinians are living in some kind of jihadi training camp. (this is what the embargo/bombings create)

If they don’t like those results maybe they should do something different.

308

I doubt it. You’ll need to provide some details before I’m convinced. And until Israel provides proof that the destruction of infrastructure is justified, my ears are closed.

Israel yet to show proof of Hamas in Gaza media tower: US

309

I started out from more of a sympathetic position towards the Palestinians, but over the years I’ve started to lean more towards the Israeli side, in the ongoing conflict between the two groups. But they are far from blameless in all of this. First of all, I think the conditions for the people living in Gaza are deplorable, and I really am not in favor of the fact that Israel seems to want to just keep them out of sight and out of mind, living in terrible surroundings in what amounts to a ghetto. I don’t really understand how anyone can expect them to “be committed to peace” when they’re forced to live in a squalid shithole with no real economy, government, or infrastructure, while their neighbor (Israel) enjoys significant prosperity.

On the other hand though, expecting any country to just tolerate rockets being launched into their cities is simply asking the impossible. There is no place on earth where they would just allow this state of affairs to continue without retaliating. I’m pretty sure that almost anyone else in the world wouldn’t take any care to try to avoid civilian casualties, they’d just bomb the shit out of wherever the rockets were coming from until it was totally destroyed.

The rocket attacks have been happening for decades now, and they haven’t accomplished anything. All they do is lead to retaliation, which inevitably kills civilians because it’s not like Hamas has a big sign outside their headquarters, they clearly have a deliberate strategy to use civilian areas as cover for their attacks and they don’t seem to CARE that they will be bombed in retaliation and that the civilians will die. It seems like their desire to launch the rockets at Israel overrides their desire to keep their own civilians safe.

Ultimately I think this situation is going to go on forever as long as the Palestinians don’t have an actual state to call their home, with its own borders, government, economy, diplomacy, and leaders who can actually be negotiated with and talked to in good faith. So the “two state solution” seems to me to be the only way there can ever really be an end to this conflict, and I hope it does happen. I think it’s probably asking the impossible to expect Israel to give up any substantive amount of its own territory to create this state, just because Israel is so tiny. In my ideal resolution to this (and maybe it’s a pipe dream), either Egypt or Jordan could cede some territory to create a Palestinian state on the border of Israel, because they have WAY more land to spare. I have no idea how realistic this scenario would be, but if it ever came to pass, I would hope that the other countries of the world would help the Palestinian state with building infrastructure and establishing industry so that it could be competitive.

Someday in my ideal world, Israel and Palestine will be kind of like England and Scotland. Their hostility will be limited to jokes about the other people fucking various kinds of livestock, and that’s about it.

310

What would you suggest?

311

Allow economic development in Gaza. Stop the iron-fist retaliating. Aren’t you better than they are? So It was tried by Shamir(?). Not for long enough, I’m guessing, to loosen Hamas’ grip on Gaza politics.

312

Literally anything else than they have done for the last decade.

Did they try sending a case of nice tea?
A stern letter?
Launch some really nice fireworks?

I don’t care. Just don’t do the same thing over and over while claiming you are expecting different result THIS time.

313

If you pick a side in this conflict you are wrong.

314

I’ve lived in a war zone, while it was being bombed. And I sympathized with the side bombing us. I’m plenty sympathetic to people who are being bombed. I’m plenty understanding about how complex wars are.

I asked you if you had any concrete suggestions. Several other people have as well. You’ve produced nothing, except to say that Israel should not do what they are doing because it’s not working to your satisfaction.

315

It seems to me that you don’t much like the results. Why don’t you suggest something different?

You think this is a decade long conflict? For a Librarian, you don’t seem all that well informed on the historical context of this generational conflict or the repeated attempts over the years to negotiate a lasting peace. You would be well served in becoming better informed on this topic instead of offering glib action-adventure solutions. I recommend you start with the excellent analysis offered by @Martin_Hyde in this thread.

316

Is there any interest in a separate thread on

Your constructive proposals for steps to ease the Israel/Arab conflict

or is it better to keep it all in this thread?

Either way, I think it’s illuminating when people put forward their own ideas for how to improve (not necessarily solve, but improve) this situation.

317

Pointing out the uselessness (and loss of life, destruction etc) of repeating the same dance over and over does not entail necessarily having a solution in mind. I could have told the WWI generals that they were at a stalemate, with the only change day to day being an increase in total casualties, without knowing enough about strategy and tactics on how to break the stalemate.

But, in terms of the question of what Israel should be doing different, let’s start with just acknowledging the need to do something different, and restating a desire for peace, which would actually be huge at this point. Oh, and of course a freeze on settlement-building, which is completely free.
…it’s not going to happen of course, because Israeli politics is a race to be the most hardline right now. But stating that something is not politically expedient is not the same thing as agreeing it’s impossible.

Oh, and before people accuse me of it again, of course any such advice applies to the Palestinians too.

318

I haven’t made it through the whole article, but this is something I didn’t know. That seems very concerning.

319

What you’re suggesting isn’t wrong, but neither is it something new under the sun. Such ideas have been offered and negotiated. I’m convinced that the average Israeli doesn’t want war any more than the average Palestinian. But the parties of god don’t want compromise and they don’t seek peaceful resolution.

320

This is correct in my opinion. I liken it to the Irish Troubles; the UK is our closest ally, Israel is one of our close formal military allies as well. But we didn’t look at the Troubles as a situation where it was productive for us (the United States) to “pick a side” we took on more of a role of mediator to try and help settle the conflict. That’s the more helpful stance to have w/the Israel/Palestine issue as well.

Interestingly in both situations we had somewhat of an element of skin in the game for similar reasons. The U.S. has done a lot to help Israel build up its military over the years (especially in the earliest days), and we have domestic voters who view support for Israel as very important. With the Troubles with had a lot of American Irish Catholics, particularly back in the 1970s when I think they felt their ties to the old country more strongly, who were ardent Irish Nationalists. Much of the funding and weapons for the IRA, I’ve always heard, actually came from those elements in the United States.