I can’t make heads or tales of the first 4 sentences, which appear to directly conflict with each other.
Whatever. This appears to be a pointless (and stupid) non-disagreement.
Good grief, I caught up. I started reading this thread, intermittently, when it was at about 200 posts; and it’s taken me this long to get through. So if I’m going to say anything I’d better do it quick.
A lot of what I would have said has already been said, often repeatedly. But I do want to come in on one issue that I think has been addressed only sketchily.
Oh, I wish. They might well have settled it by now.
There are a lot of parties interested in there being continuing conflict between Israel and Palestine. I suspect I don’t know who they all are, and may also be leaving out somebody I have heard about, but here’s a start:
To begin with, some that have been mentioned:
– Israeli religious fanatics who believe that all the territory mentioned in the Bible as having been part of Israel is theirs by right; and who want to drive out or kill all the Palestinians from that area.
– Palestinian hard-liners who believe that all the territory that now makes up Israel, as well as the territory now considered Palestine, is theirs by right, and who want to drive out or kill all the Jews.
– Islamic religious fanatics who want to drive out or kill all the Jews, from Israel to start but probably eventually from the planet.
– Hamas, who want to stay in power, and are deriving that power from focusing the Palestinian’s and the world’s attention on Israel/Palestine relations, and not on whether the Palestinians, if given the chance, might elect somebody else.
– Netanyahu and cohorts, who also want to stay in power. Admittedly a sudden outbreak of total genuine peace under their administration might well temporarily accomplish that; but in the long run the Israelis also might well elect somebody else. Plus which, I doubt they have any better idea than anybody else as to how to accomplish a sudden outbreak of total genuine peace (at least one that leaves anybody alive in both Israel and Palestine.)
And some who have not much been mentioned, or in the first case I think not at all in this thread, though I might have missed something:
– Christian apocalyptics who are seriously expecting Jesus to show up any minute, and who believe that as a pre-requisite there has to be a war going on involving Israel. These people are supporting Israel for the moment, because Israel has to exist and to be armed for that to happen; but they’re not supporting Jews. They expect all the Jews who don’t convert to Christianity (and some who won’t get the chance) to literally go to Hell; and most of them are perfectly fine with that.
– Surrounding Arab and Islamic countries who would much rather the attention of the world and in particular their own population be on the plight of the Palestinians than on anything going on at home. (This has been mentioned tangentially, in that a couple of people have pointed out that Egypt (and in the case of the West Bank, Jordan) could open their border with Palestine and let everybody out who wants to leave.)
– Russia, probably for reasons similar to those just above.
That’s eight, just to go on with, and even if we lump most of the rest of the countries in the area into one batch, which doesn’t really work very well.
they’re celebrating in the streets and hamas is calling it a success. Not sure how much overlap there is in that statement.
Who are “they”? What are they celebrating? What is Hamas calling a success?
There is actually a border crossing between Gaza and Egypt, the Rafah land port. It was relatively open in the beginning of 2021 if I am not mistaken. As for the idea of emptying out crowded refugee camps and other neighbourhoods, sounds good but Israel and Egypt (and/or wherever… why not the USA) would have to welcome and absorb these people, and you know how much politicians love unemployed immigrants.
Hard to say.
Cessation of hostilities between Israel and Hamas after a devastating 11-day offensive is seen as victory by Hamas.
Celebrating a ceasefire sounds pretty reasonable to me. Not sure how this is relevant to what I said.
I don’t think we should march into those places and simply empty them out, displacing all those people yet again - I would like to see them offered genuine immigration to a new country where they can be full citizens rather than an eternity languishing in refugee camps. Half of all the Palestinian diaspora these days are stateless, that should not be. I don’t advocate force as a “solution” but these people should be given real options.
As for unemployed - the Palestinians here in the US have done as well as any other immigrant group, and better than some. This could be because they have a hard time immigrating and most that have gotten in have been well-educated and/or possessed in demand skills. We could absorb quite a few more, probably best brought in over a decade so as not to provide panic among the bigots (too many hyperventilate because we currently have a Palestinian woman in the House).
Of course, the Republicans would have a meltdown over that, since most Palestinians in the US who have a political party are Democrats. Even so, the US potentially could absorb ALL of the Palestinian diaspora, resulting a million or two fewer Palestinians than we have Jews. The question is whether or not all those people would want to move to the US - being a collection of individuals probably not. I suspect quite a few Palestinians would, if they HAD to pick another place to live, prefer to remain in Arab/Muslim nations.
It remains that, outside the Gaza strip and West Bank, the country with the largest number of Palestinians is Jordan. The second highest number are in Israel. Syria was third, don’t know if they still are after that mess of a war. But, despite all the “support” various Arab nations claim to have for the Palestinians wealthy Saudi Arabia has only 1/4 as many Palestinians as Israel does - why do they not shelter more of their Arab brothers? It starts to look like “we support you as long as you don’t move here”. It would be nice if they could take in a few thousand more. How about the UK - there’s only 20,000 Palestinians living there, surely they could take in a few more? Canada? Germany?
Getting a little closer to back on topic - part of the problem with Palestine these days is that far, far, far too many people live in squalid camps with no legal citizenship anywhere, which is part of what keeps them in those camps. If there isn’t a geographic nation called “Palestine” then Palestinians should be able to get citizenship where they actually live, or failing that, some recognition they are people and resident and identity documents that allow for things like travel, education, and the ability to work legally. Actually, this slides into the larger issue of stateless people which causes all sorts of problems.
I wouldn’t be too sure. There’s a joke among my Pakistani friends that everyone in the Ummah loves the Palestinians in Palestine. As soon as they leave Palestine no one likes them any more.
yes, celebrating a ceasefire sounds reasonable. But the article says “they” consider their efforts a victory.
I would disagree with that assessment as an outsider looking in unless there was an excess of buildings in Gaza.
So what? What does this have to do with what I said?
This. Ideally to a choice of a number of new countries. Having one open crossing allowing temporary passage but no chance of home on the other side isn’t the same thing.
I’m sure not everybody would choose to leave. But I’m sure that some would. And, to the extent that the problem is people locked up in an overly small space with insufficient access to resources, it ought to go a long way to alleviate that.
That is very much by design. In fact, according to Wikipedia, Jordan is the only Arab country to fully integrate the Palestinian refugees from 1948 into the population.
One reason Arab countries keep the Palestinians in camps – regardless of the misery it causes – is to keep alive the notion of a “refugee crisis” and the importance of the “right of return.” Integrate the Palestinians and it takes the urgency out of the movement to “Free Palestine.”
Another reason is that at least some Arab countries are afraid of the demographic effects of integration. In Lebanon, the Muslim/Christian standoff in Lebanon is already very fraught. Locals assume that if the (mainly Muslim) Palestinians were allowed any meaningful rights, it would upset the uneasy truce between the two sides. As a result, the Lebanese government has imposed some extreme restrictions on Palestinians. (Talk about apartheid.) I saw the outside of one Palestinian camp in Tyre – a very densely packed slum area where Lebanese law enforcement does not go.
It’s also relevant that Palestinian militants took over parts of both Jordan and Lebanon as bases to continue fighting a guerrilla war against Israel. Both countries had to expel the militants. In Jordan’s case, it took a bloody and chaotic civil war.
the Palestinians don’t seem too put out by hamas.
Don’t “seem”? Is “seem” all you got? “Seem” is worth dog shit. No one cares what a random internet stranger thinks some other group of strangers “seem” like.
Try a little unpleasant reality.
Hamas won the last Palestinian general election in 2007. Pres. Abbas recently postponed the May 22 elections, in a move widely seen as motivated by the fear that Hamas would further consolidate gains over Abbas’ Fatah party. And with their “win” in the Gaza fight they would be even more likely to do that.
Quite a few Palestinians have shown a preference for “none of the above”, but it’s foolish to claim that Hamas doesn’t have substantial backing.
Whatever. If you think I said something incorrect, feel free to point it out, specifically. I can’t tell what this is attempting to dispute.
Of course by “empty them out” I meant not ethnically cleanse Gaza, but that nobody should live in a shitty slum. Offer people financial support, housing, social services, residency + citizenship, etc., not stick them in yet another camp! I can’t stand the idea of people languishing stateless and not being able to do normal things because of paperwork problems (border is closed, you don’t have the right documents anyway, etc.)
And that’s why I cited Al Jazeera as a source stating hamas considered it a success and people were celebrating in the street.
You asked: Who are “they”? What are they celebrating? What is Hamas calling a success?
Are you disputing hamas is claiming their attack on Israel was a success or that Palestinians are entwined with hamas’s political involvement?